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Author Topic: heheheheh..... powerbasic forum cracks me up  (Read 53247 times)
Antoni Gual
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« Reply #45 on: February 15, 2005, 05:59:39 PM »

Quote from: "aetherfox"
Firstly, those dll's are something you could never avoid.  While I am not too knowledgeable in raw win32 programming, even a c program would have to include those dlls that antoni showed, right?


Not at all, those dll are required by vb just to run. You can download from MS site a terminal program programmed in C that compiles in a single 60K exe and runs in every freshly installed (no hidden dll coming from elsewhere) version of Windows from 95 to XP. It uses only what comes in the windows setup.
The problem with that is you must code everything using windows API, a daunting task.

To avoid this some systems as VB or PB or Delphi use intermediate librairies to wrap the windows API.  That librairies make the ease of use of those compilers.
Only Delphi and PB compilers make a standalone programs by picking only the
library routines the program uses. This makes a 350-400K single file executable.  (the only problem is Delphi is Pascal, but that's another story Cheesy)

The problem with VB is the compiler is unable to pick only the routines the executable will use, you must carry the complete library with you.

I wonder, in the case of the listing of my previous post why the heck a program consisting in a comms routine and a dialog needs the jet database dll...Perhaps a bad use or a poor design of the setup wizard...

When people designs an office app, they target  the acoountant's computer, a clean machine with only Windows and Office installed, where carryying around some megs of runtimes is not a problem.

But I work for a company installing Building Management Systems (BMS), with the mission of making devices from differnt origins communicate with our SCADA PC. I must work in PC's set temporally over the top of a cable roll, carrying around programs from different suppliers in USB Drives.  
Each supplier (including Trend Controls from UK) has developed their programs in different times. I can't afford to carry around 5mb of cab files for each differnt program. VB is not a serious tool in this case, but everyone uses it because it's easy...

You VB programmers think you will be asked for an update of your programs every time Bill Gates issues a new version, but you're wrong:The program will be used until a new computer can't run it. So people has to mangle with VB3, VB4, VB5, VB6 and NET framework every day.

VB has just charmed IT managers because it allows my grandmother to program "Winhello" and it has controls for every Windows and Office area, it saves millions of dollars in developement.

But it's stupidly BLOATED.
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Antoni
adosorken
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« Reply #46 on: February 15, 2005, 08:48:25 PM »

You use the tool for the job, Antoni. No one is going to use VB6 (or anything Microsoft-based after Visual Studio 98) for portable programs that need to be able to run on the fly like that. In fact, if you don't do a static compile in VC++ 6, you're still going to need a runtime module (msvcrt.dll).

BastetFurry: you're just plain full of shit. No VB program, even in the crap that is vb.net, is going to produce a 500KB executable for a window and a button. VB6 is so exceptionally granular that it's a surprise that it even WAS 27KB in size. Part of that size, though, is the resources that are compiled into every VB program. VB apps also have more initialization code, they have to start up OLEAUT, etc. so they're going to be slightly larger than something coded in raw API calls. But when you compare that VB window-and-button example to a VC++ program that does the exact same thing, you could be looking at a 100 to 200KB difference...often times more.

The issue with runtime modules is so exceptionally weak in this day and age that I am surprised anyone had the lack of brainpower to even bring it up. Everyone and their grandmother with a halfway modern computer already has the runtimes installed, so it's not even a real issue anymore. And for those who don't, well...there are ways of dealing with that too that aren't exactly rocket science. None of this is hard to understand. People just like to complain about things they only half understand.

The reason I dislike VB6 (although I use it, and often) is its execution speed. This of course is due to the "middleman". However, the size of the executables compared to equivalent C++-based applications plus the ability to make the application far less error-prone makes VB6 exceptionally attractive. Sure, any dumbass can start it up, drop a few controls, hit Compile, and say they've made a program. But it takes a true expert to actually code in VB6.

Arguing over languages, especially ones to which you know little about, is quite stupid.
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I'd knock on wood, but my desk is particle board.
Z!re
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« Reply #47 on: February 15, 2005, 09:09:03 PM »

Nek, it is well known that VB requires additional runtime files to function.

Not everyone has those files, I run into missing VBRUN files about once a month.

Everyone who blindly accepts any random file download request, and doesent care whats on his system has all files, correct.

I don't like having VBRUN30 lying around on my computer wasting space (Yes, it's small, so? Many small files become pretty large)


If you take into account the runtime files needed by VB EXEs then you easily get 500kb.



And gee... Whats up with all this: I'm so cool I can code in [insert random crap here]


Get over it already...


Now, everyone get your asses over to the debate forum, and flame for a while... Infidels... FB will kick you in the nuts!
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adosorken
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« Reply #48 on: February 15, 2005, 09:38:45 PM »

Quote from: "Z!re"
Nek, it is well known that VB requires additional runtime files to function.


Quote from: "Z!re"
Not everyone has those files, I run into missing VBRUN files about once a month.

Then update your computer and stop deleting the runtimes.
Quote from: "Z!re"
Everyone who blindly accepts any random file download request, and doesent care whats on his system has all files, correct.

Bad software exists everywhere. In fact, you're running some right now.
Quote from: "Z!re"
I don't like having VBRUN30 lying around on my computer wasting space (Yes, it's small, so? Many small files become pretty large)

You likely also have dxdiagn.dll, MSHTML.DLL, Jungle.dll, MSXML.DLL, SHDOC401.DLL, and a bunch of other large DLLs lying around your computer "wasting space" as well. You're a fool if you delete a file because it "wastes space" and then bitch and moan later because a program can't run without it. And some small files can become large...yeah sure, if you're using an antique filesystem like FAT16 or even FAT32 on very large partitions.
Quote from: "Z!re"
If you take into account the runtime files needed by VB EXEs then you easily get 500kb.

Incorrect. If you look at the argument, he said that the binary itself was 500KB, which is utter bullshit.
Quote from: "Z!re"
And gee... Whats up with all this: I'm so cool I can code in [insert random crap here]

Coder's pride, I guess. :roll:
Quote from: "Z!re"
Get over it already...

I agree.
Quote from: "Z!re"
Now, everyone get your asses over to the debate forum, and flame for a while... Infidels... FB will kick you in the nuts!

FB owns all. Cheesy
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I'd knock on wood, but my desk is particle board.
Nathan1993
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« Reply #49 on: February 15, 2005, 09:40:57 PM »

About the trial, sorry, I got that confused with LibertyBASIC. About you dinosour  :cry:  I am very sorry, Z!re!!!
 :cry:  :cry:  :cry:  :cry:  :cry:  :cry:  :cry:  :cry:  :cry:
I got some mourners for you!
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f a fly walked, would it be called a walk?
Why dosn't someone make a word that rymes with purple or orange?
WHY AM I SO ANNOYING? Becuase I wanna!
Why am I typeing this? Cuz im bored!
neuro
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« Reply #50 on: February 15, 2005, 10:11:01 PM »

nt
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ignatures suck
Z!re
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« Reply #51 on: February 15, 2005, 11:21:22 PM »

Well, if you start coding in FB we MIGHT forgive you...

*glares* Cheesy
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adosorken
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« Reply #52 on: February 15, 2005, 11:32:04 PM »

Quote from: "BastetFurry"
Why cant the Formcreator just create code that makes direct calls to gdi32?

Probably because most controls do not call gdi32, they call user32. Tongue
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I'd knock on wood, but my desk is particle board.
relsoft
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« Reply #53 on: February 16, 2005, 05:14:04 AM »

Okay, it was..

PB vs FB

now..

VB vs Everything. :*)

Nah, MSVC++ 6 in MSVS needs like 5 times size to install as compared to VB.  Trust me on this, even w/o MFC, it stiil needs like 3x size. Sio VB aint bloatware.  Nor is it slow.

I'd go with VB for GUI and FB for games and Demos.

A carpenter has a lot of tools because no one tool could do the job.
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y smiley is 24 bit.


Genso's Junkyard:
http://rel.betterwebber.com/
Antoni Gual
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« Reply #54 on: February 16, 2005, 07:51:21 AM »

Quote from: "adosorken"
You use the tool for the job, Antoni. No one is going to use VB6 (or anything Microsoft-based after Visual Studio 98) for portable programs that need to be able to run on the fly like that. In fact, if you don't do a static compile in VC++ 6, you're still going to need a runtime module (msvcrt.dll).
.


Tou are too optimistic, Nek. People uses VB for these uses  because it's too much effort in moving to a suitable tool, then you have the built-in comm port support...
 
I'm starting to think in my case the best tool would be PowerBasic...
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Antoni
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« Reply #55 on: February 16, 2005, 08:06:16 AM »

What most of you fail to realize is that the runtime DLL is needed just once. Imagine that VB could statically link the needed modules from the runtime to your EXE. If you have 100 VB programs, the space required would be much bigger than the needed to store 100 VB programs without runtime modules and just one DLL. It's like common libraries such as Allegro, FMod, SDL... They are most used in DLL form 'cause if the final user has 10 games installed that uses FMod or Allegro, those DLLs are copied just once to their Windows/System  folder.

Most people have the DLLs already installed, so when it comes to download a program from some webpage they can be given the opportunity of downloading a shorter, smaller version without runtimes.

Plus the fact that you are not comparing things fairly. Pure C programs with raw API calls don't need a rontime. BASIC programs do need one, as they are at a higher level. '$DYNAMIC / DIM a AS STRING needs runtime functions. So the comparison is anything but fair.

Again, every language has its use. Language fights are stupid.
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adosorken
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« Reply #56 on: February 16, 2005, 09:06:26 AM »

Rarely do I hear people complain that they need sdl.dll or the Allegro dll for their downloaded programs, yet they'll throw a fit ten ways till Sunday about needing msvbvm60.dll. Hypocrites.
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Antoni Gual
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« Reply #57 on: February 16, 2005, 09:23:38 AM »

Well, even QB give you the possibility of making a compact executable or use the external runtime. Who uses the external runtime?

Allegro, SDL etc are third party add-in products, not a built -in part of the language.

Nathan: Any C++ compiler does variable length strings on the heap without a dll.

I would be not so angry against VB if newer versions of the dll's supported older executables. I once had  a problem with two VB4 exes needing differnt sets of dlls because they were compiled with different builds of VB4
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Antoni
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« Reply #58 on: February 16, 2005, 09:42:43 AM »

The runtime library in QB was 20 Kb. Pasting it to an EXE (which is what LINK does when prompted for a static build) doesn't make any harm, your exe goes from 100 to 120Kb maybe. But now go and paste the 1.6 megs runtime to the end of each EXE...

The QB runtime was used in the old days. You had a 180 Kb diskette with several QB programs, so you only had to stuff the runtime once. Same applies now to VB.

I don't know where you all find the bloatness. 1.6 Mb is a perfect price to pay, having in account the huge amount of functionality VB provides. 1.6 Mb installed once in your 120 gigs HDD won't do any harm.

I prefer it this way. In the same way I don't do static links of FMOD or Allegro, I prefer having small EXEs and a separate DLL with the runtime. 'Cause I just need it once. I don't have 200 FMOD.DLL around the hard disk, I have it once, in the Windows/System dir.

PB doesn't need a huge DLL... but it doesn't give even the 1% of functionality. Does PB have picture boxes, image lists? No. You have to code them using USER32. Imagine you code a graphical app in PB with all those widgets. You end with a huge 2Mb EXE. In VB, you have a 100 Kb EXE and a 1.6 Mb runtime. What's the difference?

I'll tell you: hype and 1337-ism Wink Many people think that they are more 1337 'cause they prefer to spend 2 hours coding in PB something that takes 2 minutes in VB.
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SCUMM (the band) on Myspace!
ComputerEmuzone Games Studio
underBASIC, homegrown musicians
[img]http://www.ojodepez-fanzine.net/almacen/yoghourtslover.png[/i
Z!re
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« Reply #59 on: February 16, 2005, 09:55:28 AM »

Not everyone has 120gig HDs nathan Tongue


And I don't care if I have to find the runtimes again, if I'm missing them I need to get them if I want to run the program.

No need to bitch and whine about it.


Also, MSVCRT.DLL

Visual C runtime library, comes with Windows... so almost any program today have dependencies, unless you write it in ASM, and make everything yourself.. but that wouldnt work on too many computers.


VB is for GUI applications, PB is for non-gfx applications, FB, is for Games/GFX intense stuff


an we all just move along now?, arguing over languages is kind of boring... someone start a flamewar instead... more fun... Cheesy
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