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na_th_an
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« Reply #120 on: April 14, 2004, 01:21:09 PM »

Bible can't be proved wrong, 'cause it is not a factual book. Facts can be proved wrong or true. In the Bible you have a bunch of stores that teach a phylosophy and some dogmatic beliefs.

I can't get your point. Science is science. What's been proved has been proved. It is true. Life is just a complex chemical reaction. We are far to understand it completely, but that's what it is. Look at the computer you have in front of you. It is just a bunch of electrical charges and discharges. Do you understand it completely? No. Does that mean that is has been created by god or that a deep soul or something like that controls its function? No.
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« Reply #121 on: April 14, 2004, 03:04:34 PM »

See but at the same time you hail science as the great 'revealer', you admit that it doesnt have all the answers. But it wil. Tongue dont you see the irony? you have blind faith in a system. You are just as indocrinated as anyone else.

If, like you say, we are purely chem and elec reactions, then, you would agree, we are solely comprised of, and participant in the "system" we call nature. But if we were solely comprised, and limited to nature, how is it that we can ponder and understand things that are not of a physical nature? (you may not believe it, but geometry is one such thing. there is really no such thing as a perfect circle, any perfect shape for that matter. We know this from experience and relativity. How then can we understand these absolutes? They must then exist)

Like CS Lewis says. If we are just created by nature; if we are just an effect of whatever causes put us here, how can we say we have intelligence? To say that no thought is independent of the 'nature system' is to say that all thought is involuntary. How then can you tell me you know the truth? How do you know your 'chemicals' dont just tell you that? See the dilemma? Thought must be seperate from simple cause and effect, or it isnt really intelligence. It really does make sense you know. I only revisit subjects because I dont think you understand it yet.

Sometimes you think I speak too mystically, but mostly its cause of the associated meanings of the words I use sometimes. Ill try to make that a little better.
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na_th_an
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« Reply #122 on: April 14, 2004, 03:35:17 PM »

I am not blind. I have faith in science 'cause I've been demonstrated 1,000 times that it works. Note that portions of life that we don't understand is 'cause they fall in a degree of complexity that our instruments can't handle by the moment, but they will. I have "faith" in science 'cause it only takes time to discover things. It doesn't rely on difficult, obscure and unfounded theories. It relies on simple basics that are synthesized into bigger things. It doesn't have all the answers yet.

I don't think I'm indoctrinated. When a believer is taught "God created Adam and Eve" he believes in it: That's doctrine, that's faith. When I'm taught "human raze resulted in the evolution of superior primates" I don't go and believe it. I understand it. That's the difference. Science may be uncomplete right now, but it doesn't ask you to believe in odd things that someone has came out with. It asks you to understand those things. That's what makes science different. Maybe we don't understand completely how the brain works, but you or me, with some research, can find the answer. We don't need a priest or a temple, or to die or to reach the Nirvana to get answers.

We can understand things that are out of nature because something that's called abstraction. Synthesis and analysis. Ask a psychologist, he may ask you in a better way than I do. Maths are there, there is nothing odd in them. It is just a system to put things together and in order. Maths are discovered, not invented. There is not such a thing like a perfect circle in nature, but look at the moon and you can't tell. Your brain is analysing the image and creating an illusion. It is easier for you to perceive it as a circular body rather than the shape it really has. Simply your brain doesn't give a damn about the concrete shape 'cause it looks enough like a sphere. That's called simplification, and it is nothing to be amazed at.

That dilemma you are talking about is the reasonable doubt. You must read Descartes. You can't tell whether you are in this world: everything comes from your senses, and those may be wrong or may be tricking you. Thinking about this (which I find really pasionate and interesting) is just going in circles. You can be sure that you exist, otherwise you won't be thinking. Your self conscience tells your existance. The world you are in comes through your senses.

Life is easy. You breathe, air goes to your lungs, it goes to your blood, it is processed in your cells to burn glucose and use it as energy and to build new structures using the stuff you eat. Everything took around six billions of years to develop. I think it is enough time, considering how radiactive our planet is (its cortex has much more radioactive materials than every known planet), the presence of the moon (the biggest moon in the known Universe, in proportion with the planet: it is as big as a small planet! It is bigger than Uranus or Pluto!). Every year, new evidence comes to demonstrate such things.

You talk about so deep concepts that every human has like infinity, geometry or maths, and think that this is too much to be something mechanical. This is because we don't understand the mechanics completely, but it is most likely that we get to understand that some time rather than they are caused by divinity or something like that.

That's the diference between faith and scientist thinking. You may understand something partially, but you know you will understand it some day. In faith you accept something you don't understand what it bases on. You have to accept some dogmas. That doesn't happen with science. It begins with 1+1=2 and you build upon it.
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« Reply #123 on: April 15, 2004, 03:56:40 AM »

Quote from: "na_th_an"
It relies on simple basics that are synthesized into bigger things.


I agree with you there, maybe not in your context though Wink

Quote from: "na_th_an"
I don't think I'm indoctrinated. When a believer is taught "God created Adam and Eve" he believes in it: That's doctrine, that's faith.


I agree with you. I'm not a fundamentalist...Im a philosopher ;p

Quote from: "na_th_an"
When I'm taught "human raze resulted in the evolution of superior primates" I don't go and believe it.


Oh, come on now, I don't believe that. It seems like as long as something has 'scientific approval', its automatically accepted. Maybe not for you (not trying to be hasty wit you Wink) but for the general majority.

See? Theres really sheep in both aspects, IMO. but then theres people who rely on their gift of reasoning. I don't read the bible every time before i answer, I use my faculty of reasoning. You can say all you want that my reasoning is influenced by what religion I have learned, but I would then cahallenge you to disprove the same notion in yourself (with science, of course)

Quote from: "na_th_an"
but it doesn't ask you to believe in odd things that someone has came out with.


Oh, come on.

science gives the benefit of the doubt to whatever theories align with the common perception towards the world at the time. (imo)

Quote from: "na_th_an"
It asks you to understand those things. That's what makes science different. Maybe we don't understand completely how the brain works, but you or me, with some research, can find the answer. We don't need a priest or a temple, or to die or to reach the Nirvana to get answers.


May I ask, answers to what? the problems of existence??? If you think science is better suited for that than philosophy, Im afraid I disagree with you.

Quote from: "na_th_an"
We can understand things that are out of nature because something that's called abstraction. Synthesis and analysis. Ask a psychologist, he may ask you in a better way than I do. Maths are there, there is nothing odd in them. It is just a system to put things together and in order.


Ahem, where did this order came from? We evolved out of chaos, and then suddenly tended towards order? *that* takes faith.

Quote from: "na_th_an"
Maths are discovered, not invented.


agreed, i just dont believe these things come from nothing.

Quote from: "na_th_an"
There is not such a thing like a perfect circle in nature, but look at the moon and you can't tell. Your brain is analysing the image and creating an illusion. It is easier for you to perceive it as a circular body rather than the shape it really has. Simply your brain doesn't give a damn about the concrete shape 'cause it looks enough like a sphere. That's called simplification, and it is nothing to be amazed at.


heh. that could be likened to seeing the world as created by a god. maybe i do simplify to think something like that. but, then, if my view of god is wrong, our view on the absolutes of math are wrong. do you get what im saying? it all ties together so perfectly. just because it doesnt exist in the physical world, doesnt mean the concept, the idea, if you will doesnt exist fully.

Quote from: "na_th_an"
That dilemma you are talking about is the reasonable doubt. You must read Descartes. You can't tell whether you are in this world: everything comes from your senses, and those may be wrong or may be tricking you. Thinking about this (which I find really pasionate and interesting) is just going in circles. You can be sure that you exist, otherwise you won't be thinking. Your self conscience tells your existance. The world you are in comes through your senses.


so its not the senses *cough*physical*cough* that confirm reality. its the acknowledgement of this thing called a consciousness. What's that? Tongue i cant believe its not clear. if we cannot trust what comes in through the physical, and our thought processes are completely "effected" by the physical, what makes it different? You are not really "thinking" in this scenario. You *know* that its not the same thing, you have acknowledged it.

Quote from: "na_th_an"
Life is easy. You breathe, air goes to your lungs, it goes to your blood, it is processed in your cells to burn glucose and use it as energy and to build new structures using the stuff you eat.


This is too deep for many religious types, nevertheless I show you how my mind works Wink

I believe that these things you talk about the 'cause' life are really just the 'manifestations' of life that appear on this 'plane' of existence.

I believe that pain is not caused by 'electrical impulses moving over nerves' or whatever your difinition is, i believe that 'electrical impulses moving over nerves' is the physical manifestation of your pain. I dont care if its "mystical", or whatever. ;p disagree if you want.

Quote from: "na_th_an"
Everything took around six billions of years to develop. I think it is enough time, considering how radiactive our planet is (its cortex has much more radioactive materials than every known planet), the presence of the moon (the biggest moon in the known Universe, in proportion with the planet: it is as big as a small planet! It is bigger than Uranus or Pluto!). Every year, new evidence comes to demonstrate such things.


We have never seen the core of the earth, nor had any observation of it, apart from applying theories that worked in other places to it. How do you know it doesnt apply to all circumstances *but* the earths core? you dont. its an assumption.  thats faith...

Quote from: "na_th_an"
You talk about so deep concepts that every human has like infinity, geometry or maths, and think that this is too much to be something mechanical. This is because we don't understand the mechanics completely, but it is most likely that we get to understand that some time rather than they are caused by divinity or something like that.


I think it's because people don't treat mechanics as mere "manifestation", as i said before.

Quote from: "na_th_an"
That's the diference between faith and scientist thinking. You may understand something partially, but you know you will understand it some day. In faith you accept something you don't understand what it bases on. You have to accept some dogmas. That doesn't happen with science. It begins with 1+1=2 and you build upon it.


What do you mean when you keep saying dogmas, btw? what havent i formed using my own mind? i believed god long before i went to church, so you know. i was drawn to it as a child. my mom didnt want to go. i dont even know why i wanted to. all i remember thinking is that i needed to become 'close' to whatever was associated with these churches.

Do you want me to reveal what I think is one of the most significant 'mysteries' in the bible? Most people that love and believe the bible dont even understand things like this. ill say if youre interested. ;p
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na_th_an
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« Reply #124 on: April 15, 2004, 09:25:42 AM »

You are completely wrong in your asserts.

I am trying to make you see why religion and science are different, but you can't see it  Shocked

I can't reply more, 'cause I lost my focus. Please sum up. What are you trying to say or to express? I'm lost, I think we are walking in circles.

All I understand about your replies is "God exists and science is not true?" Is that?

You have replied to many of my assertions with things that are not true:

Quote
I would then cahallenge you to disprove the same notion in yourself (with science, of course)


There is no need to disprove anything. Of course I'm influenced by science when I talk. You haven't got the essence of my "talking": Religion tells "believe this". Science tells "understand this". Believing is believing: someone tells you: "men are made of sponge" and you believe it. If a scientist tells you "men are made of sponge" you can go and see that that's not true.

Quote
Quote
but it doesn't ask you to believe in odd things that someone has came out with.  

Oh, come on.

science gives the benefit of the doubt to whatever theories align with the common perception towards the world at the time. (imo)


I don't get the "oh come on" part from that quote. Tell me 1 single time when science asked you to believe in odd things that someone has came out with. Just one.

Quote
May I ask, answers to what? the problems of existence??? If you think science is better suited for that than philosophy, Im afraid I disagree with you.


Lost focus there as well: All this began talking about life, intelligence and evolution. The problems of existence are something purely philosphical that does not have to do with nature.

I'll tell you why the human race is on the Earth: to grow, reproduce and die. This is exactly why every alive being exists. It is our blatant arogancy what has made us consider ourselves something special and something more close to "God" than the other animals or plants. A human being is not more than a mosquito.

Religions have been copying the previous one since history tells what happened. Humans are arogant: they greated a God to fit their image. And then they turned it around and stated that God created them to fit his image.

Quote
Ahem, where did this order came from? We evolved out of chaos, and then suddenly tended towards order? *that* takes faith.


Didn't get me again. Order = simplification. Could you remember the exact shapes of everything that is in your bedroom? It is easier for your brain to store rectangles, circles and triangles.

I don't see why is that so special or involves faith or whatever. It is just the way the brain has to make things easier.

Quote
it all ties together so perfectly. just because it doesnt exist in the physical world, doesnt mean the concept, the idea, if you will doesnt exist fully.


Are we agreeing? To me, God is an idea. The idea of God. To me God is maths and physics: they make the world go round. Science just is unveiling how.

Quote
so its not the senses *cough*physical*cough* that confirm reality. its the acknowledgement of this thing called a consciousness. What's that?  i cant believe its not clear. if we cannot trust what comes in through the physical, and our thought processes are completely "effected" by the physical, what makes it different? You are not really "thinking" in this scenario. You *know* that its not the same thing, you have acknowledged it.


Sorry but I didn't get a single word out of it. Where are you trying to get? I just explained you the cartesian point of view.

Quote
believe that these things you talk about the 'cause' life are really just the 'manifestations' of life that appear on this 'plane' of existence.

I believe that pain is not caused by 'electrical impulses moving over nerves' or whatever your difinition is, i believe that 'electrical impulses moving over nerves' is the physical manifestation of your pain. I dont care if its "mystical", or whatever. ;p disagree if you want.


You are up to believe in what you want. My whole point in all this discussion is that you can't attempt to demonstrate something that you believe, and all this was against everyone who tries to disprove something using faith or believings. Faith is faith. You have faith, you believe in different planes, great. But don't try to disprove science, 'cause it won't work.

About your example: It is not that when someone feels pain a scientist saw those impulses through the neves, it is that those impulses are who tell the brains that there is pain somewhere. It is a mere communication. Pain is not in the nerves, but in your brain. Pain "does not exist" physically. It is just a hard way to say "there is something wrong happening!".

Buy if you like to give deep mystical meaning to such simple things it is up to you and I respect you in your decision.

Quote
We have never seen the core of the earth, nor had any observation of it, apart from applying theories that worked in other places to it. How do you know it doesnt apply to all circumstances *but* the earths core? you dont. its an assumption. thats faith...


Duh? Who was talking about the core of the Earth? [No faith, nevertheless. Nobody has stated that the core is made of blah blah blah, but that "most likely" the core is made of blah blah blah. Nobody is asking you to believe nothing. I can't see faith anywhere].

I was talking about the radioactive cortex. The cortex is where you live on. It is fairly well known. Radioactivity causes genetical mutations. That was what I was trying to say. Evolution has been so successful in the Earth 'cause the Earth is gifted by the things I've said.

Quote
I think it's because people don't treat mechanics as mere "manifestation", as i said before.


So, for you, the inner voltages in the microchips of your computer is a manifestation of the computer working? God makes the computer work, and the electric charges are a manifestation?

A human being is a machine as well. Just like the computer, but more complex.

Quote
Do you want me to reveal what I think is one of the most significant 'mysteries' in the bible? Most people that love and believe the bible dont even understand things like this. ill say if youre interested. ;p


The answer is embeded in the same mystery. Pleople love and believe the bible 'cause they don't understand it.

Btw, I've read the bible from first to last page Tongue Many believers don't even have one. That's the problem.
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« Reply #125 on: April 15, 2004, 10:01:12 AM »

Quote from: "na_th_an"
Quote
so its not the senses *cough*physical*cough* that confirm reality. its the acknowledgement of this thing called a consciousness. What's that?  i cant believe its not clear. if we cannot trust what comes in through the physical, and our thought processes are completely "effected" by the physical, what makes it different? You are not really "thinking" in this scenario. You *know* that its not the same thing, you have acknowledged it.


Sorry but I didn't get a single word out of it. Where are you trying to get? I just explained you the cartesian point of view.


*sigh* thats the most important part of the post. I'm starting to get depressed lol. Most of what I say isn't religion. its philosphy. I agree we're walking in circles. I wanted to stop a while ago, but everyone kept goin.

truce.  Smiley
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na_th_an
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« Reply #126 on: April 15, 2004, 10:49:31 AM »

lol

It is not that I did not understand it. It is that I don't follow you: i.e. I don't know where do you want to get.

Do you know what's the biggest problem in this discussion: I am Spanish. In English I can only express myself / understand stuff in about 30% of my potential Sad
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