Qbasicnews.com

General => General/Misc => Topic started by: seph on March 28, 2004, 08:06:24 PM



Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: seph on March 28, 2004, 08:06:24 PM
http://bloodyjew.tripod.com/visualexperience/id6.html


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Rokkuman on March 28, 2004, 08:14:04 PM
I've never seen this website in my life...


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Zack on March 28, 2004, 09:09:16 PM
That's a disgusting racist comment. Such things are idiotic.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Z!re on March 28, 2004, 09:15:39 PM
Have to agree with Zack there...

Pretty childish and immature...

I never drink Dew, and I'm not a jew... now what?


(Btw, Beer commercial on a forum visited by minors?... :roll: )


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: whitetiger0990 on March 28, 2004, 09:16:23 PM
Quote from: "Zack"
That's a disgusting racist comment. Such things are idiotic.
I agree. One of my best friends is jewish and I even went to her batmits vah (sp?)

Quote from: "Z!re"
(Btw, Beer commercial on a forum visited by minors?... :roll: )

it's not beer =P though i never liked soda/pop/carbanated drink anyway


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Sumo Jo on March 28, 2004, 10:06:33 PM
Quote from: "Supposedly popular site"

Mountain Dew Add


What disgusting titles...


Is the picture you, or did you make the slogan?


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Jofers on March 28, 2004, 10:10:32 PM
It's not so much racist as it is retarded...  Using 'Jew' as a derogatory remark stopped being funny a long time ago.  And if it's a popular website, it would be hosted anywhere but tripod.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Plasma on March 28, 2004, 10:22:27 PM
Well, the stack overflow at line 0 was mildly interesting...


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: whitetiger0990 on March 28, 2004, 10:32:06 PM
Quote from: "Plasma"
Well, the stack overflow at line 0 was mildly interesting...

what? sounds interesting but what?


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Plasma on March 28, 2004, 11:43:37 PM
(http://www.phatcode.net/other/stupid.png)


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: 1000101 on March 29, 2004, 07:38:22 AM
And I thought my opinion of seph couldn't get any lower :\


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Zack on March 29, 2004, 11:26:36 AM
I quite agree, 1000101.
Plasma, must be your computer. My XP has a bigger stack available for JS. :P


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Z!re on March 29, 2004, 11:29:04 AM
I'm feautured on a well known site too...

Just.. no-one ever visits it.. or knows about it... :lol:

http://hem.thalamus.nu/~bjk000911/img/Me.JPG



Ohh... I just remembered... BLING BLING MAN SEPH... :rotfl: (In "The official post your picture" thread...)


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Lachie Dazdarian on March 29, 2004, 11:51:28 AM
I'm not surprised.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: oracle on March 29, 2004, 09:08:48 PM
I'm not either. And you forum members wanted him to become a moderator? I'm glad I was so against it...

Oh, and seph, that's posting a link to a racist website, but you know that don't you. I suggest you search (http://forum.qbasicnews.com/search.php) for the rules.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: SJ Zero on March 30, 2004, 09:17:17 AM
Don't look at me, Oracle....  :roll:


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: adosorken on March 30, 2004, 09:57:27 AM
What a stupid website...don't people have anything better to do with their time?


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: na_th_an on March 30, 2004, 10:09:41 AM
No, they're GOTHIC aaaaaaah

Btw, I don't think it is a racist site. It isn't even that. It is just some retarded site, making a retarded joke that is not funny. Don't try to find more connotations, there aren't any.

If it readed "Don't be a Spanish, drink Dew!" I couldn't care less.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: adosorken on March 30, 2004, 10:14:08 AM
One thing I've learned from having a large amount of Jewish friends is when you make a "Jew" joke, they tend to get very offended. Hence, I save the "Jew" jokes for my Christian, Pagan, and Atheist friends. :D


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Zack on March 30, 2004, 11:48:38 AM
Oh, just great, Nek. :roll:
It works like that. If a Christian makes a Christian joke to a Christian, it's funny. If it isn't a Christian that makes the joke, it isn't funny. Same goes with Jews, Pagans, Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: na_th_an on March 30, 2004, 12:01:16 PM
I don't think so. If you (a jew) make a joke about my relligion, I will laugh if it is funny. When I was having a Christian education, we used to tell a joke about Jesus Christ in the cross. The centurion who was there was eating peanuts, and JC got hungry, so he begged for some peanuts. After two hours of begging, the centurion un-nailed JC from the cross and gave him some peanuts. The joke ends with JC not being able to get the peanuts 'cause they slipped by the holes that the nails made in his hands...

The above paragraph can be REALLY disgusting to hardcore christians, but eh! it's a freakin' joke! AND IT'S FUNNY!

Mmmhh you are toooo concerned by a sillyness. The picture and the message is a sillyness. I think you are giving too much credit to such a stupidity.

Also, I though that being a Jew was just a religion, not a raze. Do you have to be of a special raze to be a Jew???  :o


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Zack on March 30, 2004, 12:55:45 PM
Unless you are a convert, you can sort of say that you are of a certain race, at least one dating back a lot. Certainly, Jews that can trace their ancestors to be non-Converts for a few hundred years definitely have a darker complexion.
But that doesn't matter. I see the point. I'm not so angry at "Don't be a JEW"...because some "Cheap Jews" jokes are indeed extremely funny. What really angers my is the URL.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: KiZ on March 30, 2004, 01:16:59 PM
Quote from: "Zack"
What really angers my is the URL.


Yes I saw that to and it made me well annoyed. Im not even a Jew. It still is pathetic.

And where is Seph? Why isnt he here to soak up the blame? To fill in the blanks about that racist website he showed us...  :roll:


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: na_th_an on March 30, 2004, 01:44:06 PM
Oh, I didn't realize the url :P

Anyhow, this is a blatant childish stupidity. Not worth our time, uh? I always say this: actions speak from themselves.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: seph on March 30, 2004, 02:35:35 PM
Wow, I really do LOVE you guys so damn much! I loved the assumption that the website was mine... I loved the assumption that I thought the Jew remark was funny... I absolutely love how you guys think I endorse the website...... When all I actually did was post a link to an image of me that a friend took, editted, and posted online... And I also completely ADORE how you guys naturally jump to the "I hated Seph LONG before it was cool" attitudes.

Gow how I love you guys :D  :bounce:


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: 1000101 on March 30, 2004, 03:39:38 PM
Naw, I've hated you since back in the days of qbasic.com when you were a little pissant there (that's what, 6/7 years?)


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Zack on March 30, 2004, 03:43:08 PM
"I'm featured on a popular website!"
So...you're proud? You're happy? You find the site funny? :roll:


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Rokkuman on March 30, 2004, 04:15:33 PM
Quote from: "seph"
Wow, I really do LOVE you guys so damn much! I loved the assumption that the website was mine... I loved the assumption that I thought the Jew remark was funny... I absolutely love how you guys think I endorse the website...... When all I actually did was post a link to an image of me that a friend took, editted, and posted online... And I also completely ADORE how you guys naturally jump to the "I hated Seph LONG before it was cool" attitudes.

Gow how I love you guys :D  :bounce:


...I just knew you would reply with something stupid like that...


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: adosorken on March 30, 2004, 05:03:41 PM
Quote from: "Zack"
Oh, just great, Nek. :roll:
It works like that. If a Christian makes a Christian joke to a Christian, it's funny. If it isn't a Christian that makes the joke, it isn't funny. Same goes with Jews, Pagans, Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists.

Jokes are jokes. As na_t_an said, if a joke is funny, it's ok to laugh at it because hey, it's funny. If you take yourself THAT seriously, you need to remove whatever corn cob got implanted where the sun doesn't shine...if you catch my drift. If you can't laugh at yourself, you are going to live a long lonely life of misery and "why me's".

And am I the only one who noticed that it wasn't seph's site? I probably know seph better than most of you, but regardless of that, even if he hadn't sad it outright, I would have known it wasn't his own site. He doesn't do stuff like that. I commented on the site...it's a stupid site. Then again, the Internet is full of stupid sites (Kenneth Copeland Ministries' website is #1 on my list of the Internet's stupidest sites) so it's no different from any other crap that already exists out there.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: 1000101 on April 04, 2004, 11:05:08 PM
I never thought it was his site, I was under the impression that it was his inanity that brought about the 'Dew/Jew' nonsense.

I have nothing against making fun of religion, but make sure you do it equally ;P


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Lachie Dazdarian on April 05, 2004, 08:01:44 AM
This is not the only reason why I dislike seph. Did we all forgot when he bashed into forum after a week or so of absence some time ago and called all of us bunch of losers and dorks without a real life. I remember that correctly and I don't tolerate that kind of patronizing.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Rokkuman on April 05, 2004, 11:26:12 AM
You guys are being too stoic. Zack has all the right to be offended by that link. Sure, it makes sense to blow it off and whatnot, but some people can only do that to a certain extent... If the link had something that said "Don't be a cotton-growing, boot-lipped negro, drink the Dew!", I'd probably walk in a 100% straight line to kill whoever wrote it, because I was just severely insulted... But I could also blow it off, and disregard it. Offense wouldn't have been made up, if it wasn't possible.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Zack on April 05, 2004, 12:43:43 PM
Quote from: "Rockuman"
You guys are being too stoic. Zack has all the right to be offended by that link. Sure, it makes sense to blow it off and whatnot, but some people can only do that to a certain extent... If the link had something that said "Don't be a cotton-growing, boot-lipped negro, drink the Dew!", I'd probably walk in a 100% straight line to kill whoever wrote it, because I was just severely insulted... But I could also blow it off, and disregard it. Offense wouldn't have been made up, if it wasn't possible.

Exactly. For instance, in Toronto, our dim-witted former mayor once made a comment about his upcoming trip to Kenya. To misquote, "I can just picture myself...boiling in a pot with all sorts of natives dancing around me." The general population of Toronto was embarrassed and slightly angry at the mayor. The African population was very angry. If he had made an anti-Jewish comment, everybody would be embarrassed but Jews, who would be angry. It works that way with any particular race or religion that has undergone severe mistreatment.
I know that Nek is going to say I'm wrong, and so go ahead. :)  But when you look at it like Nek once said (misquote) "Anyone who takes religious/race jokes seriously and gets angry needs to remove the corn cob from where his place where the sun doesn't shine," you'll find that anyone clearly from a particular race has that particular corncob jammed. That's pretty incorrect, don't you think?


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: TheBigBasicQ on April 05, 2004, 01:22:05 PM
Zack you arent wrong and neither is Nek. Jokes are a very powerful tool. But you need to know when/where and with whom to crack such sensitive jokes. If my religion/country was targetted then I would be offended but would take it sportingly, not blowing my top and would probably request the person *not* to crack such jokes atleast in front of me.

I have learnt through my experiences that joking can and is dangerous is if used wrongly. It can create terrible misunderstandings and resentment. It is even worse than directly making a bad remark like "so and so religion is bad!"...

So seph, I think the majority doesnt want you to crack such jokes in the future over here.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Zack on April 05, 2004, 03:01:00 PM
All your comments I agree with and believe are correct. The best one of all is the last sentence. Seph, take the gist of that and keep it handy at the back of your brain.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: 1000101 on April 05, 2004, 05:48:45 PM
Quote from: "TheBigBasicQ"
It is even worse than directly making a bad remark like "so and so religion is bad!"...


I agree with that entirely.  I don't believe any specific religion is bad.  I believe they are all bad.  Religion has done nothing but pertetuate hate, give false hope, make one person believe s/he superior to another, cause wars, etc, etc.  There is not *one* thing that any religion (at least, European and North African/Middle East Religions anyway) has done which can top the least of the worst things they've done/caused.

I saw outlaw all religion, but this is getting off topic.

*waits for flaming*


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Zack on April 05, 2004, 05:50:51 PM
If you don't feel any spiritual connection, you probably will think that.

Don't you think that outlawing religion will cause...........war??


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: 1000101 on April 05, 2004, 07:35:16 PM
There is no such thing as a 'spiritual' anything.  That's an illusion.  It's like saying 'I never had an imaginary sundae which tasted better'.

An of course it would cause war.  But only pretetuated by whom...you guessed!  The religious!  Hence:  Religion is causes wars.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Fling-master on April 05, 2004, 08:18:13 PM
I actually agree with 1000101 as far as religion goes lol... but he's right, this is really off topic.

Also I think oracle brought up a really good point. Some of you guys actually wanted seph to be a moderator (http://forum.qbasicnews.com/viewtopic.php?t=4382). Wow. Insane! Can you imagine this place with HIM as a moderator? lmao.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: speedlemon on April 05, 2004, 08:26:01 PM
zack, arent u supposed to be at passover? i thought it started today and in your other topic, you said you werent gonna be here for a few days.. i have no problem with u being here. i think you are a gifted programmer along with a lot of people here. i was just wondering.  :o  :o  :barf:  :o  :o
oh! ooh! let me be like tbbq...

this is way off topic.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: seph on April 05, 2004, 08:32:07 PM
I reiterate my point of why I find this funny... The joke is not mine. The picture is mine. I did not know it would be used this way. Quite frankly, I don't really give a damn what you people think of me. I admit I do a little, but only because I don't like seeing my name pissed on for the wrong reasons. If you're going to rant towards me, make it for something I DID do wrong, like breaking my guitar when I got into an argument. Not something I didn't do wrong, like my friend using my picture in that way without even asking me.

Sure, I posted the link here, but who said I support the quote? No, I just like my picture. I'm dead sexy.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: oracle on April 05, 2004, 10:17:17 PM
... but the title of this thread, with the picture, is what is seemingly so bad. Y'know, something called bad image or something, when you've posted a "wow, look at me" post with your image, on a site that has a racist comment. If you did care, you'd host the picture on your own server away from such comments. You should know that this is an international community, and posting links to sites like that is gonna annoy someone...


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: 1000101 on April 06, 2004, 04:23:10 AM
There was a picture?

I didn't really notice since the 'Dew/Jew' thing was big and red, plus I have images turned off in my browser (images suck, Lynx forevar!)


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: TheBigBasicQ on April 06, 2004, 04:39:45 AM
Lynx is cool man :o

Quote from: "1000101"
*waits for flaming*


Why? This thread is a proof of what you posted. We are arguing over it, arent we? Soon there may be a flame war :roll:

Quote from: "speedlemon"
oh! ooh! let me be like tbbq...

this is way off topic.

=S ???


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: 1000101 on April 06, 2004, 04:33:31 PM
Quote from: "1000101"
There was a picture?


hrm, so there is.  I think that makes my opinion of you drop even lower.

Without an image you could say, 'someone used my login' (I know it's not your text, but go with me on this).  But, with your image *endorsing* the text, it makes it 10x worse!  I mean, now, I have you face ingrained into my head with the quote 'Drink the Dew; Don't be a Jew!' under it.  It's that sort of thing which lowers peoples opinion of you.

By-the-by, in the future, when someone asks you for your picture for thier site, reply with, 'Why?'


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: TheBigBasicQ on April 06, 2004, 04:39:29 PM
Psst....the line was "DONT BE A JEW! DRINK THE DEW"


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: 1000101 on April 06, 2004, 05:05:59 PM
You're missing the point ;P


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: TheBigBasicQ on April 06, 2004, 05:10:24 PM
Sorry, but I just wanted you to know the correct sentence that was used on the website. Though, I agree with you that seph just degraded himself by posting that link. If I were in his shoes I would kick the a$$ of my friend and get that pic off his website ASAP!


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Zack on April 07, 2004, 10:42:20 PM
[Binary_number_here_that_I'm_too_lazy_to_copy]: "No such thing as a spiritual connection." Atheists believe that, that's fine. Ever notice, however, that most things the Atheist religion (and it IS a religion) believes in (evolution, etc.) are a little...far-fetched?
Anyway...
Studies have shown that Mountain Dew has things that damage sperm in men who drink it. Unhealthy.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: na_th_an on April 08, 2004, 12:11:18 AM
You are mixing stuff. Evolution is not something that the atheists believe in. Evolution is just a fact :)

Did you know that 70% of scientists believe in God?

Science and religion don't have to collide neccesarily.

And atheists don't have a point. They say that God doesn't exist, but they can't demonstrate that :D:D:D:lol:


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Plasma on April 08, 2004, 12:14:14 AM
http://www.snopes.com/toxins/yellow.htm

(btw, there's yellow 5 in mac & cheese...)


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Fling-master on April 08, 2004, 12:33:06 AM
Quote from: "na_th_an"
And atheists don't have a point. They say that God doesn't exist, but they can't demonstrate that :D:D:D:lol:


I'm probably going to kick myself later for this but here goes... and keep in mind I'm only looking for a simple answer and am not in anyway *trying* to start an argument but it will probably erupt into one anyway in some form or another. Just trying to understand both sides better. ;)

Anyway... you say we (atheists) don't have a point. Well... to that I say... how do the non-atheists have a point? Can they give me some concrete proof that God does exist? Can they demonstrate to me that he does?

Basically... IMO neither side has a "point" really as neither one can prove the other wrong.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Piptol on April 08, 2004, 01:32:52 AM
Hmm.. about the religious stuff, we've all been here before and I think that thread ended up getting locked ;)

About the picture thing, yes I also find it insensitive in an international, multicultural forum. And we have been here before with seph.. remember this (http://forum.qbasicnews.com/viewtopic.php?t=2850&highlight=) thread? Whatever your involvement with the latest picture seph, you will see why we will be quick to jump on you given your past performance.

My first post in ages an it has to be sticking the boot in. Sheesh  :roll:


Title: picture
Post by: jatos on April 08, 2004, 05:28:47 AM
I must admit tha offended me as well....
My general attitude is that any of form of rudeness etc from someones religion is completly unacceptable and people should be treated the same wether there a jew, muslim buddhist christian or any other religion...


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: na_th_an on April 08, 2004, 08:19:06 AM
Quote from: "Fling-master"
Anyway... you say we (atheists) don't have a point. Well... to that I say... how do the non-atheists have a point? Can they give me some concrete proof that God does exist? Can they demonstrate to me that he does?


Exactly my point, that's why i am agnostic. I don't affirm nor deny God's existence. I can't tell whether God exists or not.

That's why I say that, to me, when atheists argue against "believers" saying that God does not exist 'cause its existence can't be demonstrated, they are throwin' rocks upon their own roof: they can't demonstrate its non existene as well.

That's a "reasonable doubt", and science people like I prefer to have it rather to affirm or negate without a proper clue :)

But I respect both of you (atheists and believers), of course. Each one is up to believe what they want. I am only saying that believers believe in God, and atheists believe that God does not exists. To me, it is just a different kind of faith. Faith in the non existence of God.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: 1000101 on April 08, 2004, 09:11:28 AM
Quote from: "Zack"
[Binary_number_here_that_I'm_too_lazy_to_copy]: "No such thing as a spiritual connection." Atheists believe that, that's fine. Ever notice, however, that most things the Atheist religion (and it IS a religion) believes in (evolution, etc.) are a little...far-fetched?


The Theory of Evolution is no more far fetched then some fairy-tale God getting bored one day and creating a universe, populating it, then abandoning it.

Further, Evolution is more plausable and there is evidence to support it.  The fact that we exist -doesn't- support the God theory.

Also, I'm agnostic.  I don't say there is no God or Gods, just that there is no evidence of a God or Gods.

Finally, notice the Bible (and the Koran) both specifically state there are other Gods?  "Thou shalt not worship false Gods, for I am a jealous God."  A false God is still a God ;P

Quote from: "na_th_an"
But I respect both of you (atheists and believers), of course. Each one is up to believe what they want. I am only saying that believers believe in God, and atheists believe that God does not exists. To me, it is just a different kind of faith. Faith in the non existence of God.


Personally, I think both sides are completely retarded.  Anyone who firmly believes something with no proof if a retard.

While, yes, I maintain there is no God or Gods, I'm still open to the possability there are.  It just seems to me that with no proof of a God (which is good proof there is no God) and that no right-minded individual of vast amounts of power would waste thier time and that power on insiginicant things like creating universes, unless...

...Like in B&W you need worshipers to maintain power and gain power.  If that's the case, then while then why bother creating an entire universe, just create worshipers.  Seems more economical that way.  Unless, of course, that's against the rules ;P


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Zack on April 08, 2004, 10:42:01 AM
May I ask, then, how religion got so widespread? I mean, go back 600 years. Find one person that doesn't believe in some God(s). Atheism is a new thing. Why did EVERYBODY have a religion? Since you live in Canada, and the general population of Canada is Christian, I'll make the assumption that you are Christian (please, I'm just using this for an example, if you are not Christian, forgive me). Just because you don't believe in some God(s)...well, your great-great grandparents without a doubt belonged to a faith, and were active in it. And if everyone, go back a few hundred years, had one particular faith, why do you think that happened? Just because a few people said, a thousand years ago "hey...let's believe in some almighty being(s)." And then the world's population just took that up, in some form or another? Not likely.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: na_th_an on April 08, 2004, 11:02:32 AM
'Cause religion is useful for many people. They give them a reason to live, something to lean on, strength and self-confidence. I know many people that would be lost if they didn't believe in heaven. They would feel lost, mostly because they would realize that they are living... for nothing?

Jesus said some bold words: you would live forever if you followed his teachings: love even those people who hate you, forgive, be tolerant and just. This is a truth: Any person who is just and good will be remembered forever hence he will live forever in the memory of future generations. But then came the Church and messed it all up...

What's hell? Just the same. People remember Hitler, and they will keep remembering what he did for ages. That's hell.

Religion is a way to scape from big, metaphysics questions. What are we here for? Why? Religions answer those questions, so they make most people live happier. That's the good side of religions: they provide a philosophy of life that actually helps. (The bad side we all know: untolerance, hate, fear... but that comes from the humans themselves, who use the religion as a cheap excuse).


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Anonymous on April 08, 2004, 11:04:13 AM
Quote from: "Zack"
Just because a few people said, a thousand years ago "hey...let's believe in some almighty being(s)." And then the world's population just took that up, in some form or another? Not likely.


Never forget, people are sheep.

Sorry to come in so late, but I have words.

So you say there is no gods. Well, what does that imply? That there is nothing beyond the physical, no doubt. Well, tell me this, then. How can we comprehend things infinite? How can anything be absolute? The answer lies not in the physical, but in the realm of thought. We are physical beings, yes. but that is not the extent of our existence. Only when we seperate from the fetter of physical existence (or, what we know from the senses), can true enlightenment (or, true thought) occur. That smacks of something deeper than the physical, something absolute that pervades all things. Be it god, whatever. To say that physical life comprises existence is shallow in my opinion.

That's how I think about it. Crucify me. :P


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: na_th_an on April 08, 2004, 11:12:01 AM
That's too mystical to me.

To me, the soul is comprised of chemical reactions in your brain. God is the physical laws who created the Universe and keep making it work.

Humans are too proud. They made God to fit their image, not the contrary. God in most religions is just the humanized form of Nature. People along the ages have given God humanly qualities (speech, judgement, love, and many other things).

If you look closer, all religions have lots in common. Same beliefs but with different names. The most obvious thing is that when a religion has a holyday, at last other two or three have another one in the same date that resembles it in some way. For example now.

But I consider completely hateful when someone dismisses someone for his or her beliefs. To me, believing in God is not something stupid. Tolerance is the key to coexistence. Non-believers always whine about how hateful religious people tend to be with people of other religions, when they are being as hateful with them.

Another Jesus quote, about you complaining about the lil' twig in your mate's eye and not noticing the big log in yours :P


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Anonymous on April 08, 2004, 11:18:40 AM
too mystical ;D heh well answer me this. what have you ever *sensed* (i.e. felt, heard, saw) that was infinite?


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: na_th_an on April 08, 2004, 11:21:49 AM
"Inifinite" is a mathematical concept, introduced (i.e. "created") to make it easier to work. It is a tool.

The universe itself isn't infinite. Well, it is as infinite as a circumference or the surface of a sphere is. In a circumferene you can follow the line infinitely, as you can walk over a sphere infinitely. In universe happens the same, but in 4D.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Anonymous on April 08, 2004, 11:27:44 AM
the point i was trying to make is... in a physical world where everything is finite, how could the concept of infinity appear? how could we understand infinity without being previously 'acquainted' with it? there has to be a concept before an idea can be materialized. my question is, where did that concept come from?


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Zack on April 08, 2004, 11:28:32 AM
Cha0s: People are sheep, yes, but let's say that the population of the world 300 years ago was 1 billion (just an estimate, might be far off). Are you saying that 1 billion..that's one billion people were in the persuaded to believe in something false?


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Anonymous on April 08, 2004, 11:38:54 AM
first off, i never said it was a false idea.

second. ... ...

numbers mean nothing. 1 billion. yeah, thats a lot. how many people think *money* will solve all their problems? a shyte load thats how many. are they right?


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Zack on April 08, 2004, 11:45:43 AM
There are 800 million people in Africa. Let's say that a hundred years ago there were 500 million. Did they believe that money would solve their problems? Go to Italy, the Middle East, Asia, and Africa just a hundred years ago, and people thought very little of money. North America was really the only one back then, although indeed there were some in other continents.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Anonymous on April 08, 2004, 11:56:56 AM
bah, people have always, will always want to be rich. but i think you think im arguing against god. no. i was just arguing with how you presented your evidence. numbers are never sufficient because 90% of the time 90% of the people are wrong. :P or more like 10% lead the other 90% to fulfill their ends.

people want to be rich because they feel they will be more fulfilled.
tru, you can have more, see more, do more, but its just a reflection back on the fact that the finite will never infinitely satisfy.

they are filling themselves with the finite things of this world.

people who comprehend certain truths know that you must fill yourself with things of a more infinite nature to be truly happy. things such as love. god is love. 'god' is those infinite concepts.


sorry i get real opionated about this stuff :P


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Rhiannon on April 08, 2004, 12:49:01 PM
Zack: please call a doctor to surgically remove your foot from your mouth. In every post that you've written on this thread about religion, history etc, it's more than obvious you havent done any type of research whatsoever.

Evolution isnt far-fetched considering it has already been accepted as scientific fact and many branches of science are based upon evolution. Evolution isnt a religious idea created by some dumbfarks. It's been supported by an overwhelming amount of scientific evidence.

Do you have any idea how long religion has existed? You only go back 500 years or so, but humans have been on this planet for over 2.5 million years. Did you know that the first deity was prolly a goddess, considering the drawings and little clay and stone statues found in caves. Religion isnt a new thing, and neither is atheism. If there were people that believed in gods and goddesses, then there were people who denied they existed. Many ancient greeks were atheists. In fact, the word came from the greek word atheos- non belief in the gods. So it's not as "recent" as you say it is.

Atheism is not a religion in the sense that Hinduism, Christianity and Paganism are for example.  There is no code or guidelines, or ethics system to abide by. Atheism is confined to one factor: the existence or non-existence of a deity. Atheism can be the positive belief that there is no deity or the absence of a belief that there is a deity. This does not make atheists immoral, as they have their own moral system based on secular beliefs as opposed to "enlighted" religious texts.

As for the general population of Canada being Christian...it is? You should really do some research before saying something as ignorant as that.  Before the Europeans came to America, the Native Americans were certainly not Christian. After they came to America, through deception and death, they converted the Natives, but with reservations and other segregation methods, Natives were able to continue practicing their religion. Also, havent you noticed in the past decade (although you've barely been alive that long) the increase in the number of Wiccans, Pagans, Muslims, and Atheists in Canada? Research research research!

And yes people are sheep. Religion can be a powerful tool in order to keep the flock in check. What better way than to make everyone believe in the same religion, and if they do not, then they get cut off from the general population. This of course coupled with fanaticism makes a great flog.

300 years ago there were only 600 million people on the planet. And every one of them did not follow a religion. Not all of them believed in a deity. Taoism comes to mind. So does Buddhism and Confucianism. So you are incorrect in saying that 600 years ago or 300 years ago everyone believed in God(s).

As for your last post, where do you get the idea that these countries thought that money wouldnt solve their problems? A few hundred years ago, Marco Polo went to China, bringing back spices and other Oriental riches. Italy jumped at the opportunity to trade and make a market for themselves. Africa has a rich mining business, as well as the unfortunate slave trade. The Middle East was also rich in terms of spices, soaps (this is when the Europeans learned to bathe, after the Crusades) and carpets, amongst other riches that were valuable in Europe. One hundred years ago, every country in this world thought about money.  How could they not think about it when the Industrial Revolution was in the 18th and 19th century, and it started in the UK! Again, research!!!

Research is your friend ;)


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: adosorken on April 08, 2004, 05:57:47 PM
It really disgusts me when some religious creationist zealot spews garbage about Atheism being a religion and Evolution being a faith system. Both are horribly incorrect. Atheism is anything but a religion. Anyone who says it is is simply too narrow-minded to accept the fact that there are those who simply HAVE NO RELIGION. And as far as Evolution goes...WHY ARE RELIGIOUS PEOPLE SO INTENT ON PROVING EVOLUTION WRONG? Why not spend that energy proving Creationism RIGHT? Oh wait, that's right...BECAUSE THEY CAN'T! So, they spend all their time attacking what they believe to be their "enemy".

Evolution is based on scientific evidence and theory-testing over the centuries. The theories are tested, some are proven, some disproven, some are still in limbo. It is an ongoing fact-finding process. No scientist attacks Creationism, nor do they cling to Evolution as if it's some sort of spiritual crutch. In fact, when a scientist develops a theory, it is not to substantiate proof, but instead to PROVE IT WRONG. Many theories begin and end because the search for their truths continues. It has been generally accepted in the scientific community for over a decade now that evolution is indeed correct. It has not established that Creationism is incorrect because scientists do not study pie-in-the-sky fantasies (strangely enough, non-scientists don't study it either, preferring to simply attack science, using one or two disproven theories, completely disregarding all of the proven ones). Science studies what is actually studyable, and does not rely on ancient stories and legends like religions do. When a scientist refers to older works, it is work done by someone who has gone through the process of creating and then proving or disproving a theory. These collective works are what form the basis of scientific methodology. In essence...it is an ongoing process of thinking, conceiving theories, testing, researching, and learning. This greatly differs from religion and Creatonism, where people blindly accept a bunch of ancient myths that were created by cultures thousands of years old in a vain attempt to find solace against the fierce power of nature.

Nature is scary. Nature is powerful. Nature could not be explained by the ancient peoples, as they did not have the technology we have today. Thus, over time, they created stories to explain these things, and would entertain others with their stories of powerful beings who lived in the clouds and brought them the rain and other such things. The stories adapt to the era and culture, but they are still simply only stories meant to find solace and inspire faith and hope. They are not fact and cannot be proven.

There is nothing wrong with having faith. There is everything wrong with attacking someone else's faith, and there is everything wrong with attacking actual facts with your faith, especially when your faith is based on ancient myths and legends which have no actual bearing on reality.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: na_th_an on April 08, 2004, 06:10:12 PM
Quote from: "adosorken"
There is nothing wrong with having faith. There is everything wrong with attacking someone else's faith, and there is everything wrong with attacking actual facts with your faith, especially when your faith is based on ancient myths and legends which have no actual bearing on reality.


Exactly my point, like I mentioned earlier. I can't understand how people can believe that God created the universe in 6 days but deny to believe in the SCIENTIST EVIDENCE.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Rhiannon on April 08, 2004, 06:20:57 PM
I cant believe that there are parents that demand that the school board make the schools teach Creationism as an "alternate" theory to evolution :roll:


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Z!re on April 08, 2004, 06:21:08 PM
If God controlls everything, or created everything.. why did he create people so that they would start beleiving in other gods?

Why did he create other gods? And if they do not exist, why did he mislead people?

I don't get it.


Also:
In the bible, the Pharao allows the slaves to leave.
Then God makes him change his mind, and punishes the entire egyptian people.


So basicaly God is:
Missleading
Unforgiving
Hatefull
Untrusty
Jealous
Stupid (creating other gods, and allow people (that he created) to beleive in them)

But that's just my opinion :rotfl:


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: 1000101 on April 08, 2004, 07:56:05 PM
Quote from: "Zack"
And then the world's population just took that up, in some form or another? Not likely.


hrm, one might make the arguement that it was only 500 years ago that, everybody (other then the Chinese who already knew for 500 years) *knew* the world was flat, that is until Magellin circumnavigated the globe.

Again, 300 years ago everyone (again, except for those schmart Chinese) *knew* the Earth was the centre of the universe.

How could this be?  How could the entire population other then one small region know something so hugely false?  Simple:  If no one can explain something, then the first person to come along with a theory that doesn't sound too screwy is taken to be true.  It doesn't matter who it is, and as long as it doesn't contradict established doctrine (which is why Newton was imprissioned by the Church).


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: seph on April 08, 2004, 09:43:05 PM
Quote from: "Zack"
[Binary_number_here_that_I'm_too_lazy_to_copy]: "No such thing as a spiritual connection." Atheists believe that, that's fine. Ever notice, however, that most things the Atheist religion (and it IS a religion) believes in (evolution, etc.) are a little...far-fetched?
Anyway...
Studies have shown that Mountain Dew has things that damage sperm in men who drink it. Unhealthy.


How is "evolution far fetched"? It's actually one hell of a lot better of an explanation as to how we became the way we are, better than two people creating children, those children creating more children together, etc. If I'm not mistaken, the human race would be very deformed by now if we were all related that much. Also, their children's children would be very deformed too, and the same when the next generation.

And uh, if you were so lazy to type 1000101 then why did you type that many characters?


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: na_th_an on April 08, 2004, 11:09:54 PM
Z!re: there is no point arguing about how god is. God has always been like it was needed. Religion has always worked as a contentious for the masses, or to guide them in a certain path or another. A priest has always been more powerful that a king.

But that has not been made on purpose. It is product of unnumberable (sic?) factors that work together. To give an example: sexuality and nudity became something "sinful" during the first times of the middle age 'cause people realized that pregnancy caused death, children died young, and many diseases were introduced. Hence having sex was sinful: you most likely got punished for it.

Another example is that Jesus is considered God himself by the Roman Catholics. In the first times of christianism, Romans watched the christians praising their prophet and the cross so they considered that Jesus was "their God". So most converts kept considering Jesus as God. Just by tradition. Arrio, a visigothic from the north, and his followers, just negated the deity of Jesus, considering him a simple man, God's son as much. In 325 the council of Nicea decided that Jesus was a God and that in order to be a true Christian you had to believe that, considering Arrio and his followers heretics. All this stuff, that looks like pure religious matters, hid purely political interests.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: TheBigBasicQ on April 09, 2004, 03:54:11 AM
Quote from: "seph"
How is "evolution far fetched"? It's actually one hell of a lot better of an explanation as to how we became the way we are, better than two people creating children, those children creating more children together, etc. If I'm not mistaken, the human race would be very deformed by now if we were all related that much. Also, their children's children would be very deformed too, and the same when the next generation.


Thats called inbreeding =P. And yes zack, it is scientifically proved that its impossible for 2 people and their children to create 6billion people =P.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Anonymous on April 09, 2004, 05:01:10 AM
well, see, thats where you guys miss religions point of view. supposedly, god made man in his image. if you believe that, you believe the first man was perfect, apart from sin. so genetically perfect, in fact, that you could even mate with a close relative. the reason our genetics are so shabby now is because we *have* been breeding for years upon years upon years. again not necessarily my POV, but just arguing each side ;p

TBBQ, how could you *prove* that? sounds as plausible as proof of creation to me :P

btw nate, your quote about religion being hidden behind politics; golden :)


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: TheBigBasicQ on April 09, 2004, 05:27:20 AM
Well, cheetahs are an endangered species. Very few of them are remaining in the wild. So when they mate, they mate with another cheetah which is very closely related as they have little or no choice. Thus inbreeding takes place. And this has happened for many generations so the offsprings that are seen have a lot of genetic abnormalities. This is also one of the major reasons why cheetahs are becoming extinct  :barf:


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: 1000101 on April 09, 2004, 06:30:11 AM
Quote from: "Cha0s"
well, see, thats where you guys miss religions point of view. supposedly, god made man in his image. if you believe that, you believe the first man was perfect, apart from sin. so genetically perfect, in fact, that you could even mate with a close relative. the reason our genetics are so shabby now is because we *have* been breeding for years upon years upon years. again not necessarily my POV, but just arguing each side ;p


That is the stupidest thing to say in this thread yet.

Inbreeding re-enforces resessive traits.  If our species propogated from two genetically perfect specimens, then we would still be genetically perfect as there would be *no* resessive traits to re-enforce.

*That* in itself is a pretty damned good indication that we didn't get 'created' magically by some fairy God but that we evolved like every other life-form on this planet.

Infact, the *only* book I've read and I recommend it, it's quite good, is 'Jobe:  A Comedy of Justice'.  In it, the devil explains to a modern day Jobe that God enjoys tormenting man in an effort to make him try to faresake God and thereby justify his tormenting of man.  Further, the whole Creationist Theory has it that Earth is only 6000 years old (something ridiculous like that anyway).  The Devil explains this too.  Earth is both billions of years old and only 6000 years old.  How?  Because it was created old.  Why?  To tormant and confuse man.  I think the one of the best part of the book is Hell on Earth.  Texas isn't on Earth, it's actually in Hell, but it's meshed seemlessly into the time-space fabric of space so humans can't tell.  Texas is hell, that's rich.

I believe the contents of that book far more then that of any actual religious text.  Anyway, it's quite amusing.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Rhiannon on April 09, 2004, 07:24:50 AM
Another good book is "The Screwtape letters" by CS Lewis. It's similiar to the one you described ;)


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Anonymous on April 09, 2004, 07:30:35 AM
Quote from: "1000101"
Quote from: "Cha0s"
well, see, thats where you guys miss religions point of view. supposedly, god made man in his image. if you believe that, you believe the first man was perfect, apart from sin. so genetically perfect, in fact, that you could even mate with a close relative. the reason our genetics are so shabby now is because we *have* been breeding for years upon years upon years. again not necessarily my POV, but just arguing each side ;p


That is the stupidest thing to say in this thread yet...


Well way to bring the flaming into it. Real mature.

Here, I think you missed it the *second* time...

Quote from: "Cha0s"
well, see, thats where you guys miss religions point of view. supposedly, god made man in his image. if you believe that, you believe the first man was perfect, apart from sin. so genetically perfect, in fact, that you could even mate with a close relative. the reason our genetics are so shabby now is because we *have* been breeding for years upon years upon years. again not necessarily my POV, but just arguing each side ;p


Guys, I understand genetics, believe me. I think you need to look at it from a different perspective. Look at it like acceleration. Let's say man started perfect. then an element (sin) was introduced, and the 'defectiveness' started to accelerate. right off the bat, it wouldnt be bad. but after time, after it has had time to 'gestate', or accelerate, then the defects are more pronounced.

everything physical slowly breaks down. that implies that before any given time, it was in a better condition than it is now. do you see what i mean? how far back does it go? it approaches infinity, but there is the factor, that... defect (sin) that keeps it from attaining infinity (or, perfection).

i dont care if every single one of you thinks im crazy. if you want me to stop posting on this, just say and i will; simple as that.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: TheBigBasicQ on April 09, 2004, 08:38:40 AM
Thats what seems impossible. How could humans start as perfect beings? Can you explain if they were perfect when they started then why our ancestors were dumber(?) than us?

1000101: Don't personally insult someone in a debate.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Anonymous on April 09, 2004, 09:13:26 AM
theory:

perhaps our ancestors really *were* smarter than us. perhaps they had more potential. maybe the reason we all seem so much 'smarter' now is not actually our potential, but the fact that at this point, we have more cumulative knowledge than they did. especially now that we put all the pieces together to have this wonder we call the internet, information transfer is instantaneous, resulting in more people having more knowledge than possible before. following the thought on 'pieces', it is as though people were able to better put together the pieces, they just had less to actually work with.

again, just a theory ;p


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: TheBigBasicQ on April 09, 2004, 11:22:17 AM
I am speechless(more like wordless =P)  :D  :)  :(  :o  :-?  :???:  :evil:  :cry:


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Fling-master on April 09, 2004, 02:09:52 PM
Quote from: "TheBigBasicQ"
I am speechless(more like wordless =P)  :D  :)  :(  :o  :-?  :???:  :evil:  :cry:


The point of that post (let alone all those smilies) was... ?


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: TheBigBasicQ on April 09, 2004, 03:18:08 PM
The smilies was my reaction to his post. I am horrified at his ignorance  :o


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: adosorken on April 09, 2004, 03:27:47 PM
Settle down, guys and girls...well, mostly girls. :D


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: na_th_an on April 09, 2004, 06:03:48 PM
Is it so hard to understand? Natural selection. If some year the temperature raises 20C only the animals of a species that can handle the heat will survive. Those who don't, will die. Therefore, the next generation will be able to handle the great, as their mothers and fathers can. Why could their mothers and fathers  be able to handle the heat? Genetical mutations. We are talking about thousands of generations from a change to the following.

It happened that the Rhamapithecus that survived were the most intelligent ones. The primates developed more and more intelligence as time went by simply 'cause that helped them to survive. So the most intelligent were who could had descendence. The cheetas who survived were the faster, so the species became faster and faster. Just that. It's so easy.

You have to handle the Bible as a book of allegories. Teachings, a philosophy of life, not true facts. C'mon, if Adam and Eve and their children would have had to go to bed among them to create the whole human raze... well... in 10 generations humans would have became abnormal pieces of flesh. Look at the Austrias in Europe. That family of kings married among cousins and stuff like that, and after some generations they were all ill dumbs (look at pictures of Felipe IV or Carlos II, for example):

(http://www.values.ch/Velasquez/velasquez-9.jpg) (http://www.siicsalud.com/imagenes/i01322002b.jpg)


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: 1000101 on April 09, 2004, 08:42:38 PM
Quote from: "Cha0s"
Well way to bring the flaming into it. Real mature.
Quote from: "TheBigBasicQ"
1000101: Don't personally insult someone in a debate.


As to 'flaming' and 'insulting', it was neither.  It was simply pointing out an aspect of the post.  I never said ChaOs was stupd, I said it was a stupid thing to say.  It's like telling me to describe a duck without using words like 'fly', 'avian', 'aquatic', 'carbon based lifeform', or any other word that describes a duck.  You can take being PC and shove it up yer arse ;)

Back to the debate...

Quote from: "Cha0s"
Here, I think you missed it the *second* time...

Quote from: "Cha0s"
if you believe that, you believe the first man was perfect, apart from sin.


Guys, I understand genetics, believe me.


Obviously you *don't* understand genetics.  There is no 'sin' gene, it's not genetically passable and only exists in the eyes of the religious (since sin is a crime against the religion).

Even if 'sin' was part of man, it is still not something that causes genetic mutations (6 fingers a hand, people from Alabama).  This isn't medieval France, the crimes of the father do not pass down to the son.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Anonymous on April 10, 2004, 12:07:41 AM
as much as you can say evolution this, that, ill never believe that a lizard can mutate into a bird.

what i say is ignorant. and stupid. i just saw a flying lizard-man the other day as a matter of fact.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: adosorken on April 10, 2004, 12:32:57 AM
Evolution has proven to be correct, but it's not so simple as a lizard transforming into a bird before your very eyes. Such an adaptation takes a very VERY long time.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: na_th_an on April 10, 2004, 01:02:17 AM
Yeah. First some lizards survive if they can jump longer. Those who developed membranes in their arms jumped longer. Among those, the ones who had bigger membranes and lighter bones jumped even longer, they survived. Those characteristings where inherited by their descendence. In a thousand of generations, membranes are bigger, now they are wings and jumps are not just jump: lizards can fly. Then scales elongated. They became feathers. Individuals with feathers and their descendence could fly faster and with less effort.

This happens in hundreds of millions of years, that means docens of millions of generations. This is not something like "suddenly, mom lizard laid an egg and a baby bird was born!"

And most important: it has been proved. Do some research, and when you understand it you'll believe it.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Anonymous on April 10, 2004, 04:17:56 AM
i know. i know it wasnt spontaneous like that. but i dont know. from a practical perspective, flight is not a simple thing. learning to fly id imagine is even less trivial. to say that these lizards has the self awareness to realize, hey if i flap my arms around, maybe i could be lifted up into the air. this assumes they even know what air is and know that its a fluid, so theres flow and they can get lift, etc. smart lizards!

i have a couple points to argue now. first off, speaking in terms of evolution, you would consider every mutation that formed a 'stronger' being to be a positive mutation, no? please dont blow this ? off :P

and 2. how exactly does the second law of thermodynamics fit in with evolution. does it apply to everything but theories??


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: TheBigBasicQ on April 10, 2004, 04:56:51 AM
Quote from: "Cha0s"
i know. i know it wasnt spontaneous like that. but i dont know. from a practical perspective, flight is not a simple thing. learning to fly id imagine is even less trivial. to say that these lizards has the self awareness to realize, hey if i flap my arms around, maybe i could be lifted up into the air. this assumes they even know what air is and know that its a fluid, so theres flow and they can get lift, etc. smart lizards!


Thats called instinct.

Quote from: "Cha0s"
i have a couple points to argue now. first off, speaking in terms of evolution, you would consider every mutation that formed a 'stronger' being to be a positive mutation, no? please dont blow this ? off :P


Yes, if stronger means "better suited for survival".

Quote from: "Cha0s"
and 2. how exactly does the second law of thermodynamics fit in with evolution. does it apply to everything but theories??


Second law of thermodynamics has *nothing* to do with evolution. It simply states that you cannot have 'heat' being transferred from a 'colder' body to a 'hotter' body. But if you see it otherwise then elaborate more.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Anonymous on April 10, 2004, 05:40:17 AM
First off. Instinct. "Programmed knowledge". That in it's loosest interpretaion, implies a "programmer". Have you ever taken a program, made a chain of
Code:
Num = INT(RND * 1)
, outputted to a file, and come up with anything intelligible hell no. Not in billions of years. Come on now. And even that explanation is flawed, because you were the one who started the program.


second, you replied 'yes' to my second question. That implies that there is *something*, be it a god, nature, or even just laws if you will that 'know' what is better for survival. This strays a bit, but would you really say that the existence of humans (or more specifically, their behavior) is really the best for the survival of the system as a whole? If not than what 'necessity' brought us about?


Looked this up for ya.

Quote from: "Frank L. Lambert, Professor Emeritus
Occidental College, Los Angeles, CA http://www.secondlaw.com/two.html"
The second law of thermodynamics summarizes that totally different events involving all kinds of energy have a common cause. A blowout in a tire or a car battery shorting out or slowly running down -- what could seem to be more unlike than those! Yet the reason for their occurring is the same, the tendency for concentrated energy not to stay localized, to disperse if it has a chance and isn't hindered somehow.


now would you consider it too "mystical", too much of a strecth to replace the bold with "life"?

Quote from: "Frank L. Lambert, Professor Emeritus
Occidental College, Los Angeles, CA http://www.secondlaw.com/two.html"

    A major goal in life is to find true BIG ideas that describe how the world works, to understand why and how things happen around us in terms of a small number of basic principles. Principles that can be tested and checked. You can't do better than the second law of thermodynamics. And the direction of energy flow is just a tip of the iceberg of that law.

Q. Iceberg? Titanic iceberg?
A. A. Come on now. You know that's just a figure of speech to give a feeling for the size of this principle. But... OK, let's get literal: Run that Titanic movie as the ship hits the iceberg. See those steel plates ripped open and the ship begin to sink. Realistic, right? Can you imagine a real happening in which the reverse occurs? A sinking ship whose steel side heals up as it comes up out of the water and floats? Ridiculous. Too stupid to think about. But why is it stupid? Because it is so improbable from your and my experience. Only a movie run backward would show that kind of unrealistic fantasy. The second law isn't some weird scientific idea. It fits with everything common happening that we know.



...Look around you. Everything physical breaks down.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: TheBigBasicQ on April 10, 2004, 07:22:26 AM
Dude thats where you go wrong. You cant apply second law of thermodynamics to life =P.

Whoever that guy you've quoted is absolutely crazy to apply a law of physics to life. I mean if you want I will give you an example where a law in physics cannot be applied to two situations which may seem very very similar =P.

Take Newton's laws of gravitations. As good they may sound for macroscopic objects they don't necessarily hold up for microscopic/atomic/subatomic levels. Why? because these are two different scenarios. Similarly is the case with the physics - human comparision.

BTW I response to your second question has a huge *if* before it.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Anonymous on April 10, 2004, 07:52:44 AM
Quote from: "TheBigBasicQ"
Whoever that guy you've quoted is absolutely crazy to apply a law of physics to life.


He didn't. I did. I don't agree with you ;p


Quote from: "TheBigBasicQ"
I mean if you want I will give you an example where a law in physics cannot be applied to two situations which may seem very very similar =P.

Take Newton's laws of gravitations. As good they may sound for macroscopic objects they don't necessarily hold up for microscopic/atomic/subatomic levels. Why? because these are two different scenarios. Similarly is the case with the physics - human comparision.


you're actually arguing against yourself here.

You're point is valid - but the only way to argue that the physical laws don't apply to life, (which is supposedly purely physical) is to argue that life is not purely physical. You see what I mean?

Your conclusion implies that:

The subatomic particles are not governed by the laws, but they are in fact acted on by them (everything consists of sub-atomic particles; and gravity does indeed exist)

Following this train of thought, the human body is acted on by physical laws, but not necessarily solely governed by them.

Quote from: "TheBigBasicQ"
BTW I response to your second question has a huge before it.


I'm sorry you'll have to clarify that one.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: adosorken on April 10, 2004, 08:28:52 AM
Quote from: "Cha0s"
but i dont know. from a practical perspective, flight is not a simple thing. learning to fly id imagine is even less trivial. to say that these lizards has the self awareness to realize, hey if i flap my arms around, maybe i could be lifted up into the air. this assumes they even know what air is and know that its a fluid, so theres flow and they can get lift, etc. smart lizards!

I would highly suggest doing some actual research rather than basing everything you're saying here on opinions and stabs-in-the-dark.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Rhiannon on April 10, 2004, 08:43:44 AM
wow, some people need to take physics or chemistry here. THe Second Law of thermodynamics states that elements in a closed system tend to seek their most probable distribution; in a closed system entropy always increases.

CLOSED!!!! Life is NOT a closed system, so stop applying the laws to life.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Anonymous on April 10, 2004, 08:44:57 AM
yeh. im too stubborn. i think we should all just agree to disagree ;p
i will never be convinced, nor will you.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: adosorken on April 10, 2004, 08:51:50 AM
Quote from: "Cha0s"
yeh. im too stubborn. i think we should all just agree to disagree ;p
i will never be convinced, nor will you.

Stubbornness may prove useful in some areas of life, but this isn't one of them. :D Also, it is difficult to un-convince someone once they have learned the truth. Beliefs, guesses, associative rationalizations...these things are not truths. Even if substantiated by circumstancial evidence of some kind, they still don't count as the truth. It is of no use to you to continue to stubbornly cling to a belief when the truth has been presented to you in living color. In fact, it will only hinder you. Of course, it's your decision whether or not to stay amongst the sheep-people who cling to the unplausible.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: na_th_an on April 10, 2004, 08:59:48 AM
If you don't believe in scientific evidence, what you believe in?

I am not trying to convince anybody, but what you are saying is like saying "how come that the Earth mass is which makes objets fall to it? I don't believe that! It must be something who causes this fall!".

I think you do believe in gravity, for example, 'cause you understand how it works. Evolution is something harder to understand 'cause it implies lots, heaps of factors during a really long period of time.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Anonymous on April 10, 2004, 10:14:07 AM
i actually understand the whole natural selection thing. i also am not arguing against adaption. just *getting* to that point is what's hard for me to believe. ;)

I admit I am relatively ignorant of it. Im going to stop arguing now.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: TheBigBasicQ on April 10, 2004, 11:58:27 AM
Quote from: "Rhiannon"
wow, some people need to take physics or chemistry here. THe Second Law of thermodynamics states that elements in a closed system tend to seek their most probable distribution; in a closed system entropy always increases.

CLOSED!!!! Life is NOT a closed system, so stop applying the laws to life.


That is just one way of stating the law. There are many others you know =P.

Quote from: "cha0s"
i actually understand the whole natural selection thing. i also am not arguing against adaption. just *getting* to that point is what's hard for me to believe.


If its hard for you to believe that then its many times tougher for us to believe that a "God" got us here.

For me God is just a concept which was created for people to place their faith in. Like when nothing works you reassure someone by saying "Don't worry God is with us". He is just a creation of human imagination which has arisen out of our need for support.

That doesn't mean I don't believe in God or am being dismissive of him. I just keep my faith and facts apart.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Rhiannon on April 10, 2004, 06:50:45 PM
Quote from: "TheBigBasicQ"
Quote from: "Rhiannon"
wow, some people need to take physics or chemistry here. THe Second Law of thermodynamics states that elements in a closed system tend to seek their most probable distribution; in a closed system entropy always increases.

CLOSED!!!! Life is NOT a closed system, so stop applying the laws to life.


That is just one way of stating the law. There are many others you know =P.


All of the edu and ac.uk/be sites I found mention the law applying to a CLOSED system only.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: adosorken on April 10, 2004, 07:23:39 PM
There has been great debate and veritable scientific war waged over the laws of thermodynamics but the victor, rightly so, has always been the clear distinction between open and closed systems over the ones who can't seem to make such a distinction.

In other words...drop it. The laws are quite clearly written and are not open to interpretation. There are no other ways to state it. This is not a religion.

As far as "God" goes...people can believe whatever they want. Those of us who've researched our history know what the whole deity process is all about and know that although it can inspire faith, it's all fantasy. But realistically speaking...we need fantasy in our lives anyways. Any time you play a video game, you're exploring fantasy. Any time you read a work of fiction, you're exploring fantasy. Watch a TV show, watch a movie, listen to your friend tell a joke...it's all fantasy. The concept of God (or Gods and Goddesses, depending on your religion) is simply one more fantasy. Maybe you need that fantasy in your life. No one has the right to say you're wrong for believing in God. It's when you take that belief and force it upon others that you have crossed the line and are in the wrong. And when you do that...prepare to catch holy hell from people like me. :D


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: oracle on April 10, 2004, 09:45:53 PM
Quote from: "adosorken"
It's when you take that belief and force it upon others that you have crossed the line and are in the wrong. And when you do that...prepare to catch holy hell from people like me. :D


Hell, yes! That is the single most annoying thing that a religious person can do to me. I've found that I brand anyone religious a brainwashed fool these days, 'cos when you talk to them in a conversation and the topic turns to religion they try to convert you!

Anyway I was going to ask: a closed system is a system in which no part of it can escape, yes? What then is not closed about life? Just because you die does not mean you leave the system, other's memories of you or actions based on something you did still remain. Could someone clarify this for me?


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Anonymous on April 10, 2004, 11:16:14 PM
im sorry to come back, but i couldnt let this go ;p

it seems everyone wants to put 'life' in a special category. its like nothing else is like life. nothing can be fully applied to it. dont you think maybe that implies that there is something about life that is just wholly intangible? or am i seriously the only one who sees it like that?


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: adosorken on April 10, 2004, 11:20:05 PM
Life is a series of chemical reactions and electrical charges. Nothing more. :D


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: na_th_an on April 10, 2004, 11:43:20 PM
I totally agree. Humans are arogant, that's why they gave mystical meaning to something purely physical. You are alive 'cause your cells burn oxygen.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: TheBigBasicQ on April 11, 2004, 02:12:55 AM
Hey not just yet. Lets not forget there are many things that we dont understand or aren't possible for science to explain at the moment.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Rhiannon on April 11, 2004, 09:41:33 AM
A closed system means that nothing can be added or subtracted from the 'specimen'. Obviously if you apply the law to an empty box, then open the box and dump in a handful of sand, or quarks, or energy, you don't expect the law to apply, because the system is not 'closed'. In life you can add and subtract, hence it is not closed.

Quote from: "Physlink.com"
Closed system. A physical system on which no outside influences act; closed so that nothing gets in or out of the system and nothing from outside can influence the system's observable behavior or properties.

Obviously we could never make measurements on a closed system unless we were in it, for no information about it could get out of it! In practice we loosen up the condition a bit, and only insist that there be no interactions with the outside world which would affect those properties of the system which are being studied.

    Besides, when the experimenter is a part of the system, all sorts of other problems arise. This is a dilemma physicists must deal with: the fact that if we take measurements, we are a part of the system, and must be very certain that we carry out experiments so that fact doesn't distort or prejudice the results.


Quote from: "cha0s"
it seems everyone wants to put 'life' in a special category. its like nothing else is like life. nothing can be fully applied to it. dont you think maybe that implies that there is something about life that is just wholly intangible? or am i seriously the only one who sees it like that?


Scientific discovery is an ongoing process. Just because we cant explain something now doesnt mean that it wont be explained in the future. Think genetics, geophysics and chemistry for example. People used to think the world consisted of 4 elements: earth, water, air and fire. Now we know there are atoms which make up over 100 elements, and we can even make our own. People used to think the earth was flat, now we know different.Galileo was killed for saying the earth went around the sun. Now we know he was right. See how science progresses?


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: adosorken on April 11, 2004, 09:25:52 PM
"Life" has two distinct meanings. The first is the physical, which is, as I described, nothing more than chemical reactions and electrical charges. The second is what we refer to when we tell someone to "get a life!". This would be our own personal collection of events, memories, goals, dreams, etc. Everything we keep in our minds, that is our "life". This "life" is completely controlled by the human brain, a construct so diabolically complex that we're still far from completely understanding it. Science will one day completely understand how it works. In the meantime though, it is ridiculous, IMO, to fill that knowledge void with fantasies and simplifications. Saying that "something is responsible for this and that" doesn't get you any further to understanding it...actually it pushes you away because you've closed out the possibility of the truth being known, and you fall back on old legends and stories that have no bearing on reality. I personally place tremendous trust in science simply because I know how the scientific process works. It is unaffected by agendas and influence, it is a process of finding the truth at any cost. Thus, it can be trusted to a certain degree. Scientists don't just pull theories out of their ass. They are based on prior research and new discoveries, then they are put through the disproving process. If it cannot be disproven, it becomes accepted at its current state. Later research and discovery might make it incorrect, partially incorrect, or even more correct with new information to substantiate it. As Rhiannon said, it is an ongoing process.

All things are explainable. We just may not have the explanation yet. :)


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Anonymous on April 12, 2004, 12:39:27 AM
Quote from: "adosorken
All things are explainable. We just may not have the explanation yet. :)


I know youre going to hate me for this, but...

I have an explanation. Just not the one you want to hear! ;)

*Let the bashing ensue*


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: adosorken on April 12, 2004, 01:18:52 AM
Spill it then! :D

If it's a legitimate explanation, then by all means, tell it! Unless it's more pie-in-the-sky fantasy, in which case it's just opinion/faith that means nothing. If you have nothing to substantiate it, you're hosed. :D


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Bluffer on April 14, 2004, 03:58:39 AM
I still think that it is interesting as hell to me to understand how we got here. yea I know read the bible but I can't make alot of since out of it either & it doesent go into explaining it that well..


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: na_th_an on April 14, 2004, 04:33:04 AM
Because the Bible is not intended for such things.

If you wanna haver "answers" about such issues, go to the library and get some books about physics, biology...


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Anonymous on April 14, 2004, 07:20:28 AM
Heh. I remember Rhia saying something about C.S. Lewis' "The Scretape Letters," so I decided to read some work of his.

I suggest you all read "Miracles." Specifically, chapter III, "The Cardinal Difficulty of Naturalism." Tell me what you think, if youre up to the challenge. :)


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: adosorken on April 14, 2004, 08:59:51 AM
I think it's even more religious mumbo jumbo intended to discredit science, that's what I think of it. Yet another religious zealot who cannot prove their beliefs to be "right", so they spend their efforts attempting to prove science "wrong". In other words...it's rubbish.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Anonymous on April 14, 2004, 11:46:23 AM
Quote from: "adosorken"
I think it's even more religious mumbo jumbo intended to discredit science, that's what I think of it. Yet another religious zealot who cannot prove their beliefs to be "right", so they spend their efforts attempting to prove science "wrong".


 :rotfl:  Ohhhh bro, thats rich! You're starting to smack of ignorance, friend. Say it ain't so!

Quote from: "adosorken"
In other words...it's rubbish.


In other words... You didn't even read it. If you did, and you still have that to say, I challenge you. What makes you any less of a sheep to your beliefs. Philosophy isn't science. That doesn't mean it has no place in reason. (Read the book I suggested to learn more about 'reason') Make your best argument against what he says and then we'll talk.

I would argue that "No! No! I refuse to believe it!" Is much more of mumbo jumbo. Work it through your mind, and "analyze and interpret". Don't be so prejudiced.

P.S. C.S. Lewis started his 'mission' in life to prove the Bible wrong. (Like a wscientist you would say). Look where he ended up :P


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: na_th_an on April 14, 2004, 01:21:09 PM
Bible can't be proved wrong, 'cause it is not a factual book. Facts can be proved wrong or true. In the Bible you have a bunch of stores that teach a phylosophy and some dogmatic beliefs.

I can't get your point. Science is science. What's been proved has been proved. It is true. Life is just a complex chemical reaction. We are far to understand it completely, but that's what it is. Look at the computer you have in front of you. It is just a bunch of electrical charges and discharges. Do you understand it completely? No. Does that mean that is has been created by god or that a deep soul or something like that controls its function? No.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Anonymous on April 14, 2004, 03:04:34 PM
See but at the same time you hail science as the great 'revealer', you admit that it doesnt have all the answers. But it wil. :P dont you see the irony? you have blind faith in a system. You are just as indocrinated as anyone else.

If, like you say, we are purely chem and elec reactions, then, you would agree, we are solely comprised of, and participant in the "system" we call nature. But if we were solely comprised, and limited to nature, how is it that we can ponder and understand things that are not of a physical nature? (you may not believe it, but geometry is one such thing. there is really no such thing as a perfect circle, any perfect shape for that matter. We know this from experience and relativity. How then can we understand these absolutes? They must then exist)

Like CS Lewis says. If we are just created by nature; if we are just an effect of whatever causes put us here, how can we say we have intelligence? To say that no thought is independent of the 'nature system' is to say that all thought is involuntary. How then can you tell me you know the truth? How do you know your 'chemicals' dont just tell you that? See the dilemma? Thought must be seperate from simple cause and effect, or it isnt really intelligence. It really does make sense you know. I only revisit subjects because I dont think you understand it yet.

Sometimes you think I speak too mystically, but mostly its cause of the associated meanings of the words I use sometimes. Ill try to make that a little better.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: na_th_an on April 14, 2004, 03:35:17 PM
I am not blind. I have faith in science 'cause I've been demonstrated 1,000 times that it works. Note that portions of life that we don't understand is 'cause they fall in a degree of complexity that our instruments can't handle by the moment, but they will. I have "faith" in science 'cause it only takes time to discover things. It doesn't rely on difficult, obscure and unfounded theories. It relies on simple basics that are synthesized into bigger things. It doesn't have all the answers yet.

I don't think I'm indoctrinated. When a believer is taught "God created Adam and Eve" he believes in it: That's doctrine, that's faith. When I'm taught "human raze resulted in the evolution of superior primates" I don't go and believe it. I understand it. That's the difference. Science may be uncomplete right now, but it doesn't ask you to believe in odd things that someone has came out with. It asks you to understand those things. That's what makes science different. Maybe we don't understand completely how the brain works, but you or me, with some research, can find the answer. We don't need a priest or a temple, or to die or to reach the Nirvana to get answers.

We can understand things that are out of nature because something that's called abstraction. Synthesis and analysis. Ask a psychologist, he may ask you in a better way than I do. Maths are there, there is nothing odd in them. It is just a system to put things together and in order. Maths are discovered, not invented. There is not such a thing like a perfect circle in nature, but look at the moon and you can't tell. Your brain is analysing the image and creating an illusion. It is easier for you to perceive it as a circular body rather than the shape it really has. Simply your brain doesn't give a damn about the concrete shape 'cause it looks enough like a sphere. That's called simplification, and it is nothing to be amazed at.

That dilemma you are talking about is the reasonable doubt. You must read Descartes. You can't tell whether you are in this world: everything comes from your senses, and those may be wrong or may be tricking you. Thinking about this (which I find really pasionate and interesting) is just going in circles. You can be sure that you exist, otherwise you won't be thinking. Your self conscience tells your existance. The world you are in comes through your senses.

Life is easy. You breathe, air goes to your lungs, it goes to your blood, it is processed in your cells to burn glucose and use it as energy and to build new structures using the stuff you eat. Everything took around six billions of years to develop. I think it is enough time, considering how radiactive our planet is (its cortex has much more radioactive materials than every known planet), the presence of the moon (the biggest moon in the known Universe, in proportion with the planet: it is as big as a small planet! It is bigger than Uranus or Pluto!). Every year, new evidence comes to demonstrate such things.

You talk about so deep concepts that every human has like infinity, geometry or maths, and think that this is too much to be something mechanical. This is because we don't understand the mechanics completely, but it is most likely that we get to understand that some time rather than they are caused by divinity or something like that.

That's the diference between faith and scientist thinking. You may understand something partially, but you know you will understand it some day. In faith you accept something you don't understand what it bases on. You have to accept some dogmas. That doesn't happen with science. It begins with 1+1=2 and you build upon it.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Anonymous on April 15, 2004, 03:56:40 AM
Quote from: "na_th_an"
It relies on simple basics that are synthesized into bigger things.


I agree with you there, maybe not in your context though ;)

Quote from: "na_th_an"
I don't think I'm indoctrinated. When a believer is taught "God created Adam and Eve" he believes in it: That's doctrine, that's faith.


I agree with you. I'm not a fundamentalist...Im a philosopher ;p

Quote from: "na_th_an"
When I'm taught "human raze resulted in the evolution of superior primates" I don't go and believe it.


Oh, come on now, I don't believe that. It seems like as long as something has 'scientific approval', its automatically accepted. Maybe not for you (not trying to be hasty wit you ;)) but for the general majority.

See? Theres really sheep in both aspects, IMO. but then theres people who rely on their gift of reasoning. I don't read the bible every time before i answer, I use my faculty of reasoning. You can say all you want that my reasoning is influenced by what religion I have learned, but I would then cahallenge you to disprove the same notion in yourself (with science, of course)

Quote from: "na_th_an"
but it doesn't ask you to believe in odd things that someone has came out with.


Oh, come on.

science gives the benefit of the doubt to whatever theories align with the common perception towards the world at the time. (imo)

Quote from: "na_th_an"
It asks you to understand those things. That's what makes science different. Maybe we don't understand completely how the brain works, but you or me, with some research, can find the answer. We don't need a priest or a temple, or to die or to reach the Nirvana to get answers.


May I ask, answers to what? the problems of existence??? If you think science is better suited for that than philosophy, Im afraid I disagree with you.

Quote from: "na_th_an"
We can understand things that are out of nature because something that's called abstraction. Synthesis and analysis. Ask a psychologist, he may ask you in a better way than I do. Maths are there, there is nothing odd in them. It is just a system to put things together and in order.


Ahem, where did this order came from? We evolved out of chaos, and then suddenly tended towards order? *that* takes faith.

Quote from: "na_th_an"
Maths are discovered, not invented.


agreed, i just dont believe these things come from nothing.

Quote from: "na_th_an"
There is not such a thing like a perfect circle in nature, but look at the moon and you can't tell. Your brain is analysing the image and creating an illusion. It is easier for you to perceive it as a circular body rather than the shape it really has. Simply your brain doesn't give a damn about the concrete shape 'cause it looks enough like a sphere. That's called simplification, and it is nothing to be amazed at.


heh. that could be likened to seeing the world as created by a god. maybe i do simplify to think something like that. but, then, if my view of god is wrong, our view on the absolutes of math are wrong. do you get what im saying? it all ties together so perfectly. just because it doesnt exist in the physical world, doesnt mean the concept, the idea, if you will doesnt exist fully.

Quote from: "na_th_an"
That dilemma you are talking about is the reasonable doubt. You must read Descartes. You can't tell whether you are in this world: everything comes from your senses, and those may be wrong or may be tricking you. Thinking about this (which I find really pasionate and interesting) is just going in circles. You can be sure that you exist, otherwise you won't be thinking. Your self conscience tells your existance. The world you are in comes through your senses.


so its not the senses *cough*physical*cough* that confirm reality. its the acknowledgement of this thing called a consciousness. What's that? :P i cant believe its not clear. if we cannot trust what comes in through the physical, and our thought processes are completely "effected" by the physical, what makes it different? You are not really "thinking" in this scenario. You *know* that its not the same thing, you have acknowledged it.

Quote from: "na_th_an"
Life is easy. You breathe, air goes to your lungs, it goes to your blood, it is processed in your cells to burn glucose and use it as energy and to build new structures using the stuff you eat.


This is too deep for many religious types, nevertheless I show you how my mind works ;)

I believe that these things you talk about the 'cause' life are really just the 'manifestations' of life that appear on this 'plane' of existence.

I believe that pain is not caused by 'electrical impulses moving over nerves' or whatever your difinition is, i believe that 'electrical impulses moving over nerves' is the physical manifestation of your pain. I dont care if its "mystical", or whatever. ;p disagree if you want.

Quote from: "na_th_an"
Everything took around six billions of years to develop. I think it is enough time, considering how radiactive our planet is (its cortex has much more radioactive materials than every known planet), the presence of the moon (the biggest moon in the known Universe, in proportion with the planet: it is as big as a small planet! It is bigger than Uranus or Pluto!). Every year, new evidence comes to demonstrate such things.


We have never seen the core of the earth, nor had any observation of it, apart from applying theories that worked in other places to it. How do you know it doesnt apply to all circumstances *but* the earths core? you dont. its an assumption.  thats faith...

Quote from: "na_th_an"
You talk about so deep concepts that every human has like infinity, geometry or maths, and think that this is too much to be something mechanical. This is because we don't understand the mechanics completely, but it is most likely that we get to understand that some time rather than they are caused by divinity or something like that.


I think it's because people don't treat mechanics as mere "manifestation", as i said before.

Quote from: "na_th_an"
That's the diference between faith and scientist thinking. You may understand something partially, but you know you will understand it some day. In faith you accept something you don't understand what it bases on. You have to accept some dogmas. That doesn't happen with science. It begins with 1+1=2 and you build upon it.


What do you mean when you keep saying dogmas, btw? what havent i formed using my own mind? i believed god long before i went to church, so you know. i was drawn to it as a child. my mom didnt want to go. i dont even know why i wanted to. all i remember thinking is that i needed to become 'close' to whatever was associated with these churches.

Do you want me to reveal what I think is one of the most significant 'mysteries' in the bible? Most people that love and believe the bible dont even understand things like this. ill say if youre interested. ;p


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: na_th_an on April 15, 2004, 09:25:42 AM
You are completely wrong in your asserts.

I am trying to make you see why religion and science are different, but you can't see it  :o

I can't reply more, 'cause I lost my focus. Please sum up. What are you trying to say or to express? I'm lost, I think we are walking in circles.

All I understand about your replies is "God exists and science is not true?" Is that?

You have replied to many of my assertions with things that are not true:

Quote
I would then cahallenge you to disprove the same notion in yourself (with science, of course)


There is no need to disprove anything. Of course I'm influenced by science when I talk. You haven't got the essence of my "talking": Religion tells "believe this". Science tells "understand this". Believing is believing: someone tells you: "men are made of sponge" and you believe it. If a scientist tells you "men are made of sponge" you can go and see that that's not true.

Quote
Quote
but it doesn't ask you to believe in odd things that someone has came out with.  

Oh, come on.

science gives the benefit of the doubt to whatever theories align with the common perception towards the world at the time. (imo)


I don't get the "oh come on" part from that quote. Tell me 1 single time when science asked you to believe in odd things that someone has came out with. Just one.

Quote
May I ask, answers to what? the problems of existence??? If you think science is better suited for that than philosophy, Im afraid I disagree with you.


Lost focus there as well: All this began talking about life, intelligence and evolution. The problems of existence are something purely philosphical that does not have to do with nature.

I'll tell you why the human race is on the Earth: to grow, reproduce and die. This is exactly why every alive being exists. It is our blatant arogancy what has made us consider ourselves something special and something more close to "God" than the other animals or plants. A human being is not more than a mosquito.

Religions have been copying the previous one since history tells what happened. Humans are arogant: they greated a God to fit their image. And then they turned it around and stated that God created them to fit his image.

Quote
Ahem, where did this order came from? We evolved out of chaos, and then suddenly tended towards order? *that* takes faith.


Didn't get me again. Order = simplification. Could you remember the exact shapes of everything that is in your bedroom? It is easier for your brain to store rectangles, circles and triangles.

I don't see why is that so special or involves faith or whatever. It is just the way the brain has to make things easier.

Quote
it all ties together so perfectly. just because it doesnt exist in the physical world, doesnt mean the concept, the idea, if you will doesnt exist fully.


Are we agreeing? To me, God is an idea. The idea of God. To me God is maths and physics: they make the world go round. Science just is unveiling how.

Quote
so its not the senses *cough*physical*cough* that confirm reality. its the acknowledgement of this thing called a consciousness. What's that?  i cant believe its not clear. if we cannot trust what comes in through the physical, and our thought processes are completely "effected" by the physical, what makes it different? You are not really "thinking" in this scenario. You *know* that its not the same thing, you have acknowledged it.


Sorry but I didn't get a single word out of it. Where are you trying to get? I just explained you the cartesian point of view.

Quote
believe that these things you talk about the 'cause' life are really just the 'manifestations' of life that appear on this 'plane' of existence.

I believe that pain is not caused by 'electrical impulses moving over nerves' or whatever your difinition is, i believe that 'electrical impulses moving over nerves' is the physical manifestation of your pain. I dont care if its "mystical", or whatever. ;p disagree if you want.


You are up to believe in what you want. My whole point in all this discussion is that you can't attempt to demonstrate something that you believe, and all this was against everyone who tries to disprove something using faith or believings. Faith is faith. You have faith, you believe in different planes, great. But don't try to disprove science, 'cause it won't work.

About your example: It is not that when someone feels pain a scientist saw those impulses through the neves, it is that those impulses are who tell the brains that there is pain somewhere. It is a mere communication. Pain is not in the nerves, but in your brain. Pain "does not exist" physically. It is just a hard way to say "there is something wrong happening!".

Buy if you like to give deep mystical meaning to such simple things it is up to you and I respect you in your decision.

Quote
We have never seen the core of the earth, nor had any observation of it, apart from applying theories that worked in other places to it. How do you know it doesnt apply to all circumstances *but* the earths core? you dont. its an assumption. thats faith...


Duh? Who was talking about the core of the Earth? [No faith, nevertheless. Nobody has stated that the core is made of blah blah blah, but that "most likely" the core is made of blah blah blah. Nobody is asking you to believe nothing. I can't see faith anywhere].

I was talking about the radioactive cortex. The cortex is where you live on. It is fairly well known. Radioactivity causes genetical mutations. That was what I was trying to say. Evolution has been so successful in the Earth 'cause the Earth is gifted by the things I've said.

Quote
I think it's because people don't treat mechanics as mere "manifestation", as i said before.


So, for you, the inner voltages in the microchips of your computer is a manifestation of the computer working? God makes the computer work, and the electric charges are a manifestation?

A human being is a machine as well. Just like the computer, but more complex.

Quote
Do you want me to reveal what I think is one of the most significant 'mysteries' in the bible? Most people that love and believe the bible dont even understand things like this. ill say if youre interested. ;p


The answer is embeded in the same mystery. Pleople love and believe the bible 'cause they don't understand it.

Btw, I've read the bible from first to last page :P Many believers don't even have one. That's the problem.


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: Anonymous on April 15, 2004, 10:01:12 AM
Quote from: "na_th_an"
Quote
so its not the senses *cough*physical*cough* that confirm reality. its the acknowledgement of this thing called a consciousness. What's that?  i cant believe its not clear. if we cannot trust what comes in through the physical, and our thought processes are completely "effected" by the physical, what makes it different? You are not really "thinking" in this scenario. You *know* that its not the same thing, you have acknowledged it.


Sorry but I didn't get a single word out of it. Where are you trying to get? I just explained you the cartesian point of view.


*sigh* thats the most important part of the post. I'm starting to get depressed lol. Most of what I say isn't religion. its philosphy. I agree we're walking in circles. I wanted to stop a while ago, but everyone kept goin.

truce.  :)


Title: I'm featured on a popular website!
Post by: na_th_an on April 15, 2004, 10:49:31 AM
lol

It is not that I did not understand it. It is that I don't follow you: i.e. I don't know where do you want to get.

Do you know what's the biggest problem in this discussion: I am Spanish. In English I can only express myself / understand stuff in about 30% of my potential :(