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General => General/Misc => Topic started by: Jocke The Beast on November 20, 2003, 04:12:07 PM



Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Jocke The Beast on November 20, 2003, 04:12:07 PM
As you all might have seen on tv there has been another terror-attack in Turkey, Istanbul. Right now the reports on tv says that there are 27 dead and over 400 injured people.
They all have my condolences...

I live Sweden, which also is located in Europe, and I've been on holiday once to Turkey. It feels very scary and sad now, probaly more now since this act of terror has taken place
"so close" to Sweden or at least closer then ever before...
And the "timing" is quite scary too: G.Bush are visiting England right now, Turkey are about to "get into" EU (Europe Union) and Turkey has "assisted" the US/UK in the war in Iraq. Personally I wasn't expecting the terrorists to "know what the heck they're doing" and that they had the knowledge/manpower/equipment
to succeed in their plans...but now I (more then before) realizes that they're a menace to all of us...

Very sad day  :cry:


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Zap on November 20, 2003, 04:39:28 PM
Sad what the human race do to it self. Completely unnatural, I mean, to state a point that way? Either they are very sick, or very desperate.

Quote from: "Jocke the Beast"

Personally I wasn't expecting the terrorists to "know what the heck they're doing" and that they had the knowledge/manpower/equipment
to succeed in their plans


Remember 11th September? Four, I think, planes captured and crashed almost at the same time. It's sick.

I find it very scary that they will kill themselves just like that, they must be really manipulated.

Let's have a month without flamewars to honour the people who died today. Seriously.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: na_th_an on November 20, 2003, 04:49:33 PM
Well, people support terrorists. That happens in my country. Nobody knows how, but ETA has always plenty of money to build bombs or to buy guns. That sucks. It's hard to live in a country which has such kind of menace.

The sad thing is that before Sept 11th terrorist groups such as ETA weren't taken seriously worlwide. It's a shame that films like "The Jackal", a complete apology of terrorism (IMHO) as it featured a former member of ETA as the main female character, are made. The film presented her as a person who did what she did 'cause he had a cause, some ideals. That's a nonsense. Terrorists are killers. Just killers. People symphathised with that character even when she was a killer, a criminal. Big, great shame.

Thankfully, now the world has realised that all the terrorists are the same kind of shi t.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Zap on November 20, 2003, 04:52:47 PM
Agrees with Nathan, though I think you meen 11th September, right?


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: na_th_an on November 20, 2003, 04:55:19 PM
Sure. Typo. Corrected ;)


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Zap on November 20, 2003, 04:56:30 PM
Knows them, you should read my essays. Just figured things should be clear in this post.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: speedlemon on November 20, 2003, 07:35:04 PM
it sounds like what is happening at this forum... everyone is attacking eachother for stupid things....


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: adosorken on November 20, 2003, 08:07:10 PM
Quote from: "speedlemon"
it sounds like what is happening at this forum... everyone is attacking eachother for stupid things....

What is stupid to you is not stupid to another. Don't judge people like that, it only makes you appear ignorant.

Anyways, terrorists have always existed. They have always caused trouble. It's only now that GW Bush-whacker has decided to take on the world that they're getting serious press. Just more proof that the US media is just full of shit.

Quote from: "Zap"
I find it very scary that they will kill themselves just like that, they must be really manipulated.

It's called loyalty to the cause, and a need for martyrdom. Don't believe the crap you see on television. That little scurry in Iraq, for example, was a great showing of just how bought off all of us were. By making Iraq out to be some kind of monster, GW Bush and the media sold war to the American people. It's pathetic that our own president would sell us out like that, but then again, governments are all the same and are all corrupt and will do whatever it takes to sway their people in their favor and against external "forces".

Government sucks. But anarchy sucks more. And if there's one thing I really can't stand, it's an anarchist. Although government sucks, when someone does a misdoing against an anarchist, where's the first place the anarchist turns for help? The government. A little bit of hypocrisy there. Hello? This is pot! Hey kettle, you're black!

Anyways...it totally sucks about what happened in Turkey but this was predicted a long time ago, so no one should really be shocked either...


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: na_th_an on November 20, 2003, 08:30:01 PM
You're quite right. And the worst thing is that my f ucking government helped the Americans to take over Iraq, although almost 90% of Spanish people hated such an idea.

Last week some people related to Al Qaeda were arrested with important documentation about a terror attack in my country. We are also in the list, people...

And the saddest thing is that the most injuried collective is the muslim minority in Spain. Fascist scum can make their lives a hell, thanks god that most people here are tolerant.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Jocke The Beast on November 20, 2003, 08:34:24 PM
I'm not going to get involved in another "was it right to attack Iraq or not"-issue but you know where I stand Nathan...and I also respect your opinion. Enough said (by me at least)  8)


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Agamemnus on November 20, 2003, 09:31:18 PM
Quote

Anyways, terrorists have always existed.


That's the same thing as saying that Muslims have, since thousands of years ago, always hated Jews. Which is wrong firstly because Mohammed started Islam only in 400AD or 600AD, or something like that.

I am going on a tangent here. My main objection to this statement is that terrorists have NOT always existed. Remember the Roman Empire? There were no terrorists back then.

And what about the recent synagogue bombings? Turkey is recently always a terrorist attack... it's not really a surprise that they were hit again.

And what about state-sponsored terrorism? I'm not talking specifically about Iraq here, though. Let's talk about 1800-1900. The Ottoman Empire sponsored terrorism for a bit. So did Russia vs. Ottoman Empire. So did the new Balkan states. So when these countries stopped funding terrorists, what happened? They didn't disappear but had to be slowly killed off.

Terrorism doesn't just "crop up". There are forces at work that create terrorism. Osama Bin Laden? He is a byproduct of previous terrorism and/or Bad Things: Iranian/Saudi Arabian intolerance vs. Israelis/Democracy, American indoctrination of Afghanistani Mujahadeen... etc.

So, even if you didn't read any of that:

ALL TERRORISM HAS A CAUSE. (as in cause and effect...)


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: na_th_an on November 20, 2003, 10:30:20 PM
A cause?

Do you call a cause to kill innocents? To tear families? To fear people? Is that a cause?

It's clear that you've never felt the fear of being menaced by a bomb attack in your city. It's clear that you haven't felt the rage of seeing mutilated innocent people lying on the ground where you have been. It could have been you. It could have been your mother, your father, your brother, your friend or whoever.

That's a nonsense, a butchery, not a cause.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: adosorken on November 20, 2003, 10:34:36 PM
Quote from: "Agamemnus"
My main objection to this statement is that terrorists have NOT always existed. Remember the Roman Empire? There were no terrorists back then.

The Roman Empire WAS the terrorist. :) Let's not forget what a terrorist is...one who brings terror. Holy shyte did they bring terror to many people in the world. The Christian Crusades were another terrorist act (again, you can thank Rome for this one).

Quote from: "Agamemnus"
And what about state-sponsored terrorism?

Woohaw...you wanna talk state-sponsored terrorism...wow, look at the US government and how they support Israel...known the world over for terroristic attacks. The US supports them despite GW Bush's claims to be "against terror". It's all a line of bullshyte intended to sway the American public. Fortunately, people outside of the US are usually too smart to fall for it.

Quote from: "Agamemnus"
Terrorism doesn't just "crop up". There are forces at work that create terrorism. Osama Bin Laden? He is a byproduct of previous terrorism and/or Bad Things: Iranian/Saudi Arabian intolerance vs. Israelis/Democracy, American indoctrination of Afghanistani Mujahadeen... etc.

1. Osama bin Laden had nothing to do with 9/11.
2. Saddam Hussein also had nothing to do with 9/11.
3. Both have been labelled as evil by the US war machine.
4. Yes, I have proof of all three above points.

Quote from: "Agamemnus"
ALL TERRORISM HAS A CAUSE.

Of course it does...virtually everything in this world has a cause. And an effect. Tis just the way it is. :D

9/11 screwed me over in more ways than I care to admit. I almost lost my business that I had spent years building up, and when you've spent many years of your life building something so nice only to have it ripped from you in the course of a few hours, it tends to leave a damper on you. I bought up the bin Laden story for awhile because it made me feel good that *someone* was going to be punished for taking MY life away. However, as time progressed, pieces of the puzzle weren't fitting together and I decided to do a bit of research. What I found shocked me, angered me, and made me totally distrust the US government. With a little time spent researching the facts, most anyone can discover the truth about 9/11 and virtually all the acts of terror that have taken place over the past 15 years.

The real terrorist right now is the USA.

And these are the words of a natural born American.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: oracle on November 20, 2003, 10:52:37 PM
Aah, good to see me and Nek can agree on something... :lol:

It's all about perspective anyway. The terrorists think that they are right, and the rest of the world think that it is them who are right. You can't win...


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: na_th_an on November 20, 2003, 10:57:02 PM
Ah, more unamericans! Neat. Count me in.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: adosorken on November 20, 2003, 10:57:55 PM
Quote from: "oracle"
Aah, good to see me and Nek can agree on something... :lol:

Don't get used to it ;)

 :rotfl:


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Agamemnus on November 20, 2003, 11:31:33 PM
Quote

Woohaw...you wanna talk state-sponsored terrorism...wow, look at the US government and how they support Israel...known the world over for terroristic attacks. The US supports them despite GW Bush's claims to be "against terror". It's all a line of bullshyte intended to sway the American public. Fortunately, people outside of the US are usually too smart to fall for it.


OK. I have heard this kind of BS before. Bring it on. That, and the "proof" that OBL and Saddam Hussein have nothing to do with 9/11.

PS: You can just forget about the second part, as both praised 9/11, and therefore they do not have nothing to do with 9/11.

PPS: You don't have to prove the third point.  :rotfl:


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Agamemnus on November 20, 2003, 11:32:39 PM
Oh, Nathan. You misunderstand. Cause, as in CAUSE AND EFFECT.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: adosorken on November 21, 2003, 12:18:37 AM
Quote from: "Agamemnus"
OK. I have heard this kind of BS before. Bring it on. That, and the "proof" that OBL and Saddam Hussein have nothing to do with 9/11.

I don't expect someone who's still buying up the propaganda to understand so I'm not even going to try explaining because no matter what I say to you, you won't believe it so I flat-out refuse to waste my bandwidth talking to a brick wall. However, when you open your mind to the possibility that just maybe you've been sold out and taken for a ride, we'll talk.

Lest you forget that not only am I American, native-born and raised, but am still living in America (Puerto Rico is an American territory). In addition, don't forget George Washington's own words...the day the people stop questioning the government is the day democracy has failed.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Agamemnus on November 21, 2003, 12:31:13 AM
I question the government. There is a lot of BS going on in Congress and the state government. But to question does not mean to question and not to rationalize an answer, which I believe you are doing.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Zack on November 21, 2003, 12:33:59 AM
adosorken: Am I mistaken, or are you accusing Israel of terrorism?Excuse me, but name one thing that Israel did as an act of terror.
They attack Palestinian terrorists. Palestinian terrorists had a party (literally) on the day of the Sept. 11 attacks.
I can sense a lock of  this post imminent...I just want to get a word in.
Osama Bin Laden had nothing to do with the attacks? Prove it.
Saddam had nothing to do with the attacks? OK, I can believe that. Uh, does that make him good? If Israel hadn't bombed his nuclear reactor, Iraq would've had nuclear weapons before the US invaded.

And you're accusory of Israel is anti-Semitism. Does that mean you support hate of Jews?


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: adosorken on November 21, 2003, 12:43:32 AM
*sigh*

Why not actually research things with an open mind, rather than a "I have my head stuck up GWB's butt"-influenced mind. AKA stop being a blind Patriot for a moment and look up some hard facts.

Osama bin Laden, on September 11th 2001, said, on international television, "We [the al Quaida] will gladly accept responsibility for one plane attack but not for two.". What this means is "sure, we'll take the credit for fscking with you guys, but the severity of the damage caused is beyond what we would even do".

Israel is one of the biggest terrorist nations on the face of the planet. And of course Palestinians celebrated...the USA has been backing Israel's tyrranny for decades. Wouldn't you cheer if Osama bin Laden was found dead? Of course you would. You gotta realize that the US is to them what Osama is to the US.

And everyone knows Saddam Hussein is a poor leader. He's no different than GW Bush...both are military tyrants, both have overwhelming destructive military power at their disposal, and both will do or say anything to save their own ass.

And crying anti-Semitism means nothing to me. You're drawing conclusions, as I would expect. I don't hate anybody. I have dislike for specific people based on their arrogance or intolerance (a couple of people on this forum for example who I will not mention), but hating an entire race or religion is called bias. And I am probably the single most unbiased person you'll ever run into.

I need not prove that point. It is a well-established fact.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Zack on November 21, 2003, 12:50:13 AM
I won't express what I'm feeling right now, because it will result in me being banned.
You didn't answer my request...What terroristic act has Israel ever committed?
And if in your enemy country, 6000 people were killed, people that had nothing to do with the war, would you cheer? How many people in the twin towers contributed to any U.S. military acts? A few, perhaps...but the rest? *Innocent bloodshed*


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Agamemnus on November 21, 2003, 12:52:00 AM
Quote

Osama bin Laden, on September 11th 2001, said, on international television, "We [the al Quaida] will gladly accept responsibility for one plane attack but not for two."


What happened to your TV after Sept. 11? 'Cuz Osama said afterwards that he was responsible for it.

Quote

Israel is one of the biggest terrorist nations on the face of the planet.


Your proof is unrefutable. . . Name one terrorist act that Israel supported. You can't, can you? Oh, wait, Israeli soldiers killed and keep killing Palestinians... oh no, Ariel Sharon butchered civilians 20 years back.. Hmmm.... Well, maybe you're just going to repeat this, hmmm, without citing an authoritative source on such matter? What's an authoritative source, you ask?

Government records.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Zack on November 21, 2003, 12:57:53 AM
Aga: I agree totally with you. I can't believe I met an American citizen that isn't a member of some terrorist group claim that Israel is terroristic...


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Agamemnus on November 21, 2003, 12:59:39 AM
Quote

Aga: I agree totally with you. I can't believe I met an American citizen that isn't a member of some terrorist group claim that Israel is terroristic...


In fact, a large number of people here believe this. They are in the minority, however.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: toonski84 on November 21, 2003, 01:00:19 AM
There have always been terrorists.  In the Roman Empires, bands would attack caravans and kill the passengers.  Different overtaken groups, including Jews, would commonly rise against the ruling class.  And vagabonds would commonly attack the Empire.  Hell, there's some figure that only 3 of the last 26 emporers died natural deaths.  Rome was a very, very violent society.

As for Israel and Palestine, that issue's been beat to death.  There is a lot of unnecessary violence on both sides, for different reasons, and a lot of innocent people on both sides die.  That's what happens when fighting takes to the streets.  You can takes your sides, but the world isnt black and white.  There are no megavillains, and neither side is completely just in its action, but both have their reasons for what they do (inexusable as they may be).  that's what happens in violent situations, there's no clear side to blame.  The most professional negotiators have tried, and until now have failed.  You wont solve it, either.

On the subject of Saddam Hussein's involvement with Osama, that's like saying JFK was killed by the CIA.  You can theorize all you want, but the fact is Saddam ran a secular dictatorship that oppressed Shiites, and Osama is every bit as interested in taking him down as we were (for different reasons, of course).  They were both horrible people, but there's no need to group them as a bunch of conspiring evildoers from the superfriends.

If you look at the beginning of this thread, it's to mourn all the people killed in Istanbul.  It's very sad, as are all terrorist bombings, and I think everyone can agree that these people are doing terrible, inexcusable things that should never happen.  I really hope peace comes, and soon.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: oracle on November 21, 2003, 01:01:05 AM
I'm afraid I support neither palistine (sp?) nor Israel - they both kill each other, and there's nothing about that in the koran/bible/whatever...


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: adosorken on November 21, 2003, 01:01:43 AM
Quote from: "Agamemnus"
What's an authoritative source, you ask?

Government records.

 :rotfl:  :rotfl:  :rotfl:  :rotfl:  :rotfl:  :rotfl:

If not for Rhiannon sleeping five feet away from me, I would have burst out laughing.

Besides...I already have the proof. That's why I said for YOU to go do the research yourself. It means nothing for me to sit here and give you the proof, you will do nothing except say "oh bullshyte" or "you made that up" or "that's just propaganda". Like I said before...I don't waste my time on brick walls.

Quote from: "Zack"
I won't express what I'm feeling right now, because it will result in me being banned.

Must be proof that no one can legitimately debate with me without getting pissy. :P

Quote from: "Zack"
And if in your enemy country, 6000 people were killed, people that had nothing to do with the war, would you cheer? How many people in the twin towers contributed to any U.S. military acts? A few, perhaps...but the rest? *Innocent bloodshed*

Innocent bloodshed is a part of life. Don't forget that my life was ripped apart by 9/11.

And to answer your request...you need to answer it. You are the one who needs the proof, so you are the one who should go find it.

That goes for both of you.

And knock off the anti-American hater thing. It's really insulting, irritating, and inaccurate.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: toonski84 on November 21, 2003, 01:01:45 AM
*nods to oracle*  There's a lot more going on there than what you will see on CNN or Fox News.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Zack on November 21, 2003, 01:03:02 AM
*Splutters* Innocent bloodshed is part of life? WHAT?
And I'm sorry to hear that you're life was affected by 9/11...but how is that relevent?
[edit]And what's sp?[/edit]


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: adosorken on November 21, 2003, 01:03:06 AM
Quote from: "toonski84"
*nods to oracle*  There's a lot more going on there than what you will see on CNN or Fox News.

Amen.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: SCM on November 21, 2003, 01:07:10 AM
toonski wrote:
Quote
If you look at the beginning of this thread, it's to mourn all the people killed in Istanbul.

Thank you for reminding us what it's about.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: oracle on November 21, 2003, 01:12:48 AM
Quote from: "Zack"
*Splutters* Innocent bloodshed is part of life? WHAT?


Unfortunately it *is* a part of life. It just doesn't seem *right*, that's all. I think that's what you meant :)

Quote from: "Zack"
[edit]And what's sp?[/edit]


sp = I'm not sure of the spelling :)


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Zack on November 21, 2003, 01:14:58 AM
Oracle...I have to get out of this topic...can you lock it? It's about to spiral outta control. <-- :wink:


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Diroga on November 21, 2003, 01:15:54 AM
agreeded...ah never mind now


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Hexadecimal Disaster on November 21, 2003, 01:17:06 AM
Yeah, people are expressing their points of view about a given problem, so let's lock this topic.

...talking about talibans... *sigh*


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: adosorken on November 21, 2003, 01:17:21 AM
Thank you SCM and toonski for bringing some sanity back to this thread :)

Quote from: "Zack"
And I'm sorry to hear that you're life was affected by 9/11...but how is that relevent?

Because it's always "innocent deaths" that people look at...it's never about how the survivors will go on. Many people died on 9/11, but a FAR greater percentage of people were crippled by that day, in one way or another. Those of us who survived 9/11 may have found worse fates than the ones who were slain. Fortunately, those of us who survived that day have the opportunity to move on from it and create a better life for ourselves. Many people affected by 9/11 are still dwelling on it and have yet to move on. Those of us who took advantage of the opportunity to learn from it are living better lives now.

I've been around death all my life. After awhile, it loses its punch.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: oracle on November 21, 2003, 01:20:51 AM
There's no flaming, so there will be no locking yet. This thread is not breaking any forum rules.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Diroga on November 21, 2003, 01:21:22 AM
but 20, 30 years from now it will probably be a point in time like the alamo or perl harbor. because people move on and we cant change the past only prevent it from happening again.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: adosorken on November 21, 2003, 01:23:28 AM
Quote from: "Diroga"
but 20, 30 years from now it will probably be a point in time like the alamo or perl harbor. because people move on and we cant change the past only prevent it from happening again.

History does have a strange way of repeating itself :)


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Diroga on November 21, 2003, 01:26:55 AM
is it worht living in the past? no, yes we need to repect the dead and remeber what happened but it's not right to leave give up on the future for the past.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: adosorken on November 21, 2003, 01:31:16 AM
Very true, Diroga...however, those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it, as the old saying goes. On the other hand, one who lives in the past will never have a future. One must learn the balance between honouring the past and creating the future.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: na_th_an on November 21, 2003, 07:43:24 AM
I have a question. Why most of american people that have posted in this thread have such a blind confidence and respect about Israel? I really don't understand. There are two sides, and none of them is "the good one" nor "the bad one". That's a total lake of objectivism.

About the Israeli terror attacks you should go back to 1984 and 1985 and look at Libanon. Or the more recent: http://rwor.org/a/1202/awtwnsisrael.htm

What I want to picture is that Israel is not "the good guy" in the story, it is just as bad as its counterpart. The bad thing is... (now I quote an *objective* paper about the topic): How did "tiny Israel" develop a modern economy, "make the desert bloom," maintain a European standard of living and field the world's fourth most powerful military--all within the Third World, surrounded by impoverished Arab people. The answer is imperialism: Israel is propped up, financed, armed and protected by the most powerful world power, the U.S.

In my place, we see the confilct with different eyes. Palestinian terror attacks are horrendous and never justified, but we still support the palestinian cause (which has nothing to do/exists without the terror attacks) rather than the israeli cause. What most people understand here is that in the cold war the Israeli country was created by the americans ripping palestinians appart from their lands, this quote resumes the most widespread feeling here:

We see a major military power--armed to the teeth and acting with the economic and diplomatic support of the U.S. superpower --against a poor people, poorly armed, under a brutal occupation.

We see the occupiers: an army that acts with no justice, carrying out collective punishment against a whole people, hell-bent on crushing any resistance.

We see the occupied people: driven from their lands by the Zionist Israeli state more than 50 years ago; driven to Jordan, attacked by the Jordan government in 1970, with U.S. and Israeli backing; driven to Lebanon, attacked by the Israeli army in Lebanon in 1982; resisting occupation in the West Bank and Gaza since 1967--refusing to be denied, resisting, re-asserting their cause.


And now I beg you something: In the past we could debate such kind of things without flame wars. We are intelligent people, let's just talk.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Rhiannon on November 21, 2003, 09:20:13 AM
nathan youre right. Israel is not as innocent as the US portrays them to be, nor are the Palistinians as guilty as everyone points out. Terrorist is an act of terror, and if you want to go a little further, so is war. War spreads terror, and war kills both military and civilians. All these things are presented in the media almost in a movielike form, as if we were watching some hollywood movie (i'm sure those my age or older remember watching Desert Storm on TV)  having us cheer for the "good guys" and watching them slay people. As one of my college profs once said, our society has developed a thirst for morbidness.

And while the media plays up the "war on terrorism", it turns a very blind eye towards two things 1) the positive things of society 2) the evils that still exist in the world that apparently doesnt qualify for Fox and CNN headline news. For example: slavery, underage prostitution smugglers, child abandonment, etc. I could go on for hours. Yet i bet few of you knew that slavery still exists in Sudan, or that in Eastern Europe and Central America children of both sexes (mostly female) at the age of 5 are kidnapped and smuggled across borders in order to be used as prostitutes. Not only that, how many kids are not used as drug mules? And for those who are about to say "Wow she's anti-american" In the great US of A, children still die of hunger, abuse and abandonment. Yet the US still sends money to Israel so they can bomb the hell out of the Palistinians. Great use of your tax dollars eh?

I believe it is time to move the focus away from the war going on, for every country to fix the problems inside their borders first, before charging off to other countries on a great white horse to save them. Let's save ourselves first.

(btw Zack, saying that someone is anti-Semitist becuz they believe that Israel is a terrorist nation is a little silly. There are prolly more Jews in America and Europe than there are in Israel. That would be the equivalent of saying that becuz the US calls Iraq a terrorist nation, that the US is anti-Islamic. Support of a race and support of a nation are two seperate things.)

(As for the lives lost in Turkey, may their god keep their souls safe :()


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: na_th_an on November 21, 2003, 09:29:23 AM
Rhianon you couldn't have expressed it better.

And ranting about the fascist Sharon and his policy is not anti-semitism. We are not talking about religion nor raze, but about politics. I have nothing against jews as I have nothing against christians nor muslims nor atheists nor whatever.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Zack on November 21, 2003, 12:13:19 PM
Well, we all have the right to are opinion...but does blowing yourself up with other Israelis in a bus justify anything?

Yehi R'tson sheHashem yavo shalom laOlam. Let it be god's will to bring peace to the world.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: toonski84 on November 21, 2003, 12:19:38 PM
Nobody here's supporting suicide bombing.  Look at Nate's earlier comments, that hasnt been suggested.  What he is suggesting, however, is that Israel's done some terrible things in the past as well.  My opinion of Sharon is alone reversed on the 1967 carpet bombings of Jordan when he was a general.  That doesnt mean that Hamas is justified at all.

But this has been beat to death.  C'mon, lets close the topic, flame war or not.  We all have opinions, and yeah, pro-israeli people have a strong standpoint.  They have to be scared everyday because violence happens so much, and Sharon or not, you have to expect the PM to take action.

I always love that word, "anti-semitism", because Arabs are a semitic people as well.  It's like accusing a black guy of being in the klan.  If you want to accuse someone of being racist against Jews, say that.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: adosorken on November 21, 2003, 12:25:42 PM
ALL WAR IS STUPID
'nuff said.

EDIT: It's fun being called anti-Semitic, anti-American, or hateful. It goes to show who the ignorant people are and who the knowledgable skeptics are.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: toonski84 on November 21, 2003, 12:26:15 PM
flame wars, real wars, even star wars.  You make a strong point there :)


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: na_th_an on November 21, 2003, 12:28:12 PM
Quote from: "Zack"
Well, we all have the right to are opinion...but does blowing yourself up with other Israelis in a bus justify anything?


Did I say such a thing? If so, quote me. Redundantly, as I've said, *exactly* quoting my words:

Quote from: "na_th_an"
There are two sides, and none of them is "the good one" nor "the bad one". That's a total lake of objectivism.
 [...]


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Zack on November 21, 2003, 12:45:39 PM
I was mistaken, then.
Yes...if the admin won't lock this, let's just stop using it.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: adosorken on November 21, 2003, 12:45:42 PM
Quote from: "toonski84"
flame wars, real wars, even star wars.  You make a strong point there :)

I enjoy a good healthy debate, especially when I'm right. :D But when people decide to display ignorance and start throwing insults at me because they are losing, it's pretty pathetic. When you have to turn to insults to try to win a debate, you've already lost.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: na_th_an on November 21, 2003, 12:48:50 PM
I can't understand the claim to lock this topic... We are just talking, arguing and expressing our opinions.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: adosorken on November 21, 2003, 12:50:31 PM
When people are humbled during a nice spicy debate like this, they always seek the locky locky option to save whatever face they have left before what is left is further ripped and torn. :D


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: toonski84 on November 21, 2003, 01:31:09 PM
I call it a pre-emptive strike :)  they're popular nowadays :D


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: TheBigBasicQ on November 21, 2003, 02:19:43 PM
Well IMHO terrorists shouldnt be labeled 'Islamic' or of any other religion...Infact they dont have any religion.

Be it India, Israel or US and now Turkey all of these states are suffering from terrorism in its worst form. Though India and Israel have been suffering for a long time. The world has just woken up to this ugly menace. I hope people all over the world realize what situation these great countries have been put in. Because you wont understand it until you are standing in their shoes. I am calling them great only because they have fought terrorism for a long time and no one heeded their call for help(though Israel is backed by US but still they are pretty much restricted). And now after 9/11 many other attacks people are waking up.

I just hope they are not too late... :cry:


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: adosorken on November 21, 2003, 02:36:42 PM
Fighting for peace is like f_cking for virginity.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: TheBigBasicQ on November 21, 2003, 02:53:08 PM
I have read that line before. At qb45.com?


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: KiZ on November 21, 2003, 03:22:49 PM
well said, adosorken


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Zap on November 21, 2003, 03:54:35 PM
Quote from: "adosorken"
It's called loyalty to the cause, and a need for martyrdom. Don't believe the crap you see on television.


Yeah, I know that. I think I chose the wrong words, and I know that television is greatly affected by the ones who make it, and the government in some countries.

What I meant, and should've said, was something like 'they must believe very strongly that it's right what they do, to kill them selves for it'. If you see it from their point of view, I can understand maybe a tiny bit why they do it. I'm not saying I would ever go the violence-way, talking might be harder, but it gets you further.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: TheBigBasicQ on November 21, 2003, 04:48:33 PM
Zap, these people have 'crap' in their head. They are crazy, hypnotized, brainwashed beings. They dont know what they are doing.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: adosorken on November 21, 2003, 04:52:02 PM
If you wanna get down to it...everyone is brainwashed in one way or another. :D Although we tend more to call it "influenced"...it's just that these people who we are speaking about have been influenced in the ways of violence and destruction. They know very well what they are doing, or else they could never carry out plans requiring such precision and tact.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: TheBigBasicQ on November 21, 2003, 04:58:38 PM
Yes, we all are brainwashed in one way or the other. But not to an extent that we lose the ability to make decisions. They are brainwashed so much that their 'self preservation' instinct too is lost  :cry:


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: adosorken on November 21, 2003, 05:05:03 PM
That's nothing new :D

Remember the Kamikazes in WWII? Same situation. :)


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: TheBigBasicQ on November 21, 2003, 05:07:35 PM
Yeah =*(


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Agamemnus on November 21, 2003, 05:40:35 PM
Hm....

I am not being sarcastic.

Government records.

The Nazis kept records of their systematic killings. They were, in fact, almost obsessed with record keeping.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: red_Marvin on November 21, 2003, 05:59:04 PM
Quote from: "TheBigBasicQ"
Well IMHO terrorists shouldnt be labeled 'Islamic' or of any other religion...Infact they dont have any religion.


Agree. I'm no Islamic expert or something, but according to a TV
program I saw a year ago, the Khoran (sp), wich is the Islamic
holy writing (maybe a bad name), forbids murder.

So then I make the conclusion that those terrorists who call themselves
fundamental muslims, are just hiding behind a shield of religion,
and that's sad, because then they cast their shadow on the rest
of the Islamic world...


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: na_th_an on November 21, 2003, 06:17:34 PM
The Coran is a beautiful text which has nothing to do with what fundamentalists believe. It teaches good values and virtues, just like the Bible.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: adosorken on November 21, 2003, 06:26:15 PM
Quote from: "na_th_an"
The Coran is a beautiful text which has nothing to do with what fundamentalists believe. It teaches good values and virtues, just like the Bible.

Unfortunately, fundamentalists of both sects (the Muslims and the Christians) are 110% off their rocker and have no clue what their own religion is about. And people constantly hide behind that shield of religion. It's not only pathetic but immoral BY THEIR OWN RELIGIOUS TEACHINGS. That's what always cracks me up. :D

Every once in awhile, a Christian fundamentalist makes the mistake of crossing my path. I have no qualms about crushing him with his own religion, since I know it far better than he does. As a religious scholar, I have spent many years researching world religions and their histories and the one thing I have found is that over the centuries, most of these wars are caused simply by religious disagreements.

Pathetic.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: na_th_an on November 21, 2003, 06:30:36 PM
That happens to me. I learned from the Catholic sect. Now I am an expert. An you are copletely true: most religious fundamendalist people don't even know what they believe in.

In fact, Catholics are not Christians but Paulists. They follow St.Paul teachings, not Jesus Christ's, i.e. St. Paul's own interpretations of Jesus Christ's teachings (just interpretations as he didn't know JC in person). And I know what I am talking about.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: adosorken on November 21, 2003, 06:40:17 PM
Quote from: "na_th_an"
In fact, Catholics are not Christians but Paulists. They follow St.Paul teachings, not Jesus Christ's, i.e. St. Paul's own interpretations of Jesus Christ's teachings (just interpretations as he didn't know JC in person). And I know what I am talking about.

VERY correct.

The irony of the whole thing though is that Jesus Christ as written in the bible never actually lived (and yes there is an abundance of historical proof of this), however as a character, he had some very strong ideals and is actually one hell of a role model. The issue I find the most humorous is the fact that the Catholic church has, for centuries, regarded women as like a lower-class life form, yet Jesus Christ himself said that women and men are as equals. However, in one of the lost books of the Bible (this would be the book of Thomas, I do believe), it was said that a woman could not enter the kingdom of heaven, and Jesus Christ said that he would turn a woman into a man so she may enter the kingdom of heaven. It's no wonder that this book never made it into the "official" Bible. And while we're on the Bible subject...the Bible was written between the second and fourth centuries by the Romans, NOT around the "turn of the eras" like many people believe. It is a chimaeric book, composed of many different people's writings, none of which, for obvious reasons, lived around the turn of the eras. In their own private writings, these men and women admitted to the falsities of their writings for the Bible, but wrote such doctrines for the "good of all people".

Be that as it may...if you overlook the blatant contradictions in the Bible, it does contain some great ideas by which to live by. Now if only these fundies would actually read their own damn book...


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Agamemnus on November 21, 2003, 06:45:34 PM
Quote from: "Nek"

The irony of the whole thing though is that Jesus Christ as written in the bible never actually lived


Hmm yes true... I don't think that there is any historical evidence of a man born from a virgin and God.

BUT, if you had bothered to read Scientific American, you wouldn't be so hasty. They talk about how the "real" Jesus might have looked like about 12 or so issues ago.

Quote from: "na_th_an"

The Coran is a beautiful text which has nothing to do with what fundamentalists believe. It teaches good values and virtues, just like the Bible.


What I think is so interesting here is that you forget that after Mohammed wrote the Quran, he went on a bloody campaign in Arabia, which his followers soon turned into a bloody campaign in the Middle East and North Africa.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: na_th_an on November 21, 2003, 06:55:40 PM
Agamemnus: Have you read the Coran? ---> http://www.arab2.com/quran/

I was talking about that book, not about Mahoma. I was not forgetting anything. And if I was muslim I would have considered your statement way too offensive to my beliefs. But I am not (and I still find it outta place).

adosorken: Yeah, correct. And what is more: you can follow JC's teachings without believing in God. That's why I am a christian 'cause I like those values (self and others respect, tolerance, love, peace) and I don't believe in God at all.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: adosorken on November 21, 2003, 07:02:23 PM
Quote from: "Agamemnus"
BUT, if you had bothered to read Scientific American, you wouldn't be so hasty. They talk about how the "real" Jesus might have looked like about 12 or so issues ago.

Hasty??? Where you got that from eludes me...

The Scientific American issue you're referring to offers a hypothesis, not historical reference. It is based on the location of his supposed birth as well as a few other logical factors.

Quote from: "na_th_an"
you can follow JC's teachings without believing in God. That's why I am a christian 'cause I like those values (self and others respect, tolerance, love, peace) and I don't believe in God at all.

Finally...someone who actually grasps the concepts...you're a rarity in this world, na_th_an :)


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Agamemnus on November 21, 2003, 07:05:05 PM
Quote

I was talking about that book, not about Mahoma. I was not forgetting anything. And if I was muslim I would have considered your statement way too offensive to my beliefs. But I am not (and I still find it outta place).


It's not a "statement". It's history.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: oracle on November 21, 2003, 07:09:27 PM
I hate to drag you guys back a page, but.... (from the National Geographic):

Countries where slavery is permitted: 0

Countries where more than 100 human beings have been known to have been trafficked last year: Albania, Angola, Armenia, Austria, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Belarus, Belgium, Belize, Benin, Bolivia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Brazil, Brunei, Bulgaria, Burkina Faso, Burundi, Cambodia, Cameroon, Canada, China, Colombia, Costa Rica, Croatia, Cuba, Czech Republic, Congo, Denmark, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Equatorial Guinea, Estonia, Ethiopia, Finland, France, Gabon, Gambia, Georgia, Germany, Ghana, Greece, Guatemala, Haiti, Honduras, Hungary, India, Indonesia, Israel, Italy, Ivory Coast, Jamaica, Japan, Kazakhstan, Kenya, Kuwait, Kyrgyzstan, Laos, Latvia, Lebanon, Liberia, Lithuania, Macedonia, Malawi, Malaysia, North Korea, Norway, Pakistan, Philippines, Poland, Portugal, Qatar, Romania, Russia, Rwanda, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, Serbia and Montenegro, Sierra Leone, Slovakia, Slovenia, South Africa, South Korea, Spain, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Suriname, Sweden, Switzerland, Taiwan, Tajikistan, Tanzania, Thailand, Togo, Turkey, Uganda, Ukraine, United Arab Emirates, United Kingdom, United States, Uzbekistan, Venezuela, Vietnam, Zambia, Zimbabwe

27 million people are slaves around the world.

Don't ya think some countries should look at their own internal problems before beating up other countries?

(I've only highlighted countries that I am sure are in the "war against terrorism". There may be more in that list. Also, it is good to see NZ isn't in that list!)


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: adosorken on November 21, 2003, 07:13:17 PM
Quote from: "oracle"
27 million people are slaves around the world.

Don't ya think some countries should look at their own internal problems before beating up other countries?

Rhiannon already stated this fact earlier ;)


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Agamemnus on November 21, 2003, 07:16:06 PM
Oracle, you should really get your facts straight. "Trafficked" doesn't mean that those 100 human beings were slaves. They could be:

1) Illegal workers
2) Terrorists slipping into the country
3) Hostages
4) Abductees

Most of these countries have (4) as the major reason, however.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: adosorken on November 21, 2003, 07:19:05 PM
Quote from: "Agamemnus"
1) Illegal workers

Translation: slave.

Quote from: "Agamemnus"
2) Terrorists slipping into the country

Not considered human trafficking.

Quote from: "Agamemnus"
3) Hostages

Translation: slave of political nature.

Quote from: "Agamemnus"
4) Abductees

See translation for #3.

Maybe you have mistaken National Enquirer for National Geographic, Agamemnus? :P :lol:


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: oracle on November 21, 2003, 07:21:30 PM
And I"m backing it up :)

[edit] I mean, nek's post above the one above mine :)

Oh, and by "people traffiking", this means "slaves", not "illegal imigrants", "terrorists" or anything else like that. In the US for example, there are hundreds, maybe thousands of slaves working picking fruit in orchards (specifically oranges for orange juice and tomatoes for Taco Bell).


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Agamemnus on November 21, 2003, 07:26:22 PM
I don't believe you.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Rhiannon on November 21, 2003, 07:26:47 PM
Quote from: "oracle"
And I"m backing it up :)


*puts a "wide load"  sticker on your rear*

beep when you back that thing up man ;)

and yes, slavery still exists, even in this modern age, and whoever says it doesnt exist really needs to start reading and stop watching TV. TV rots your brain.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: oracle on November 21, 2003, 07:27:51 PM
:lol: Yep, national geographic does publish some gems sometimes...


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Agamemnus on November 21, 2003, 07:28:27 PM
reading rots your brain.





so does believing that illegal immigrants working for Taco Bell are slaves.









Why not just say that all workers are slaves?


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: adosorken on November 21, 2003, 07:31:28 PM
You are clearly losing, Agamemnus...so now you're going to invent new points to try to get an upper hand? Wow. I thought I had seen it all before, but I was wrong...NOW I've seen it all. :D


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: oracle on November 21, 2003, 07:34:02 PM
No, what actually happens is that Taco Bell buys tomatoes from fruit pickers to make into tacos. Since the prices are so low, the fruit pickers feel compelled to recruit slaves from "coyotes", people who live in border towns to mexico and dupe illegal aliens from mexico into servitude.

If you want, search "CIW slavery", and you'll get the story. Or how about "Ramiro and Juan Ramos", two brothers going to jail for slavery for a total of 34 years 9 months.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: toonski84 on November 21, 2003, 07:34:53 PM
I'd just finished writing a long post about different religions, about the things Aga's said about Muslims, or what Nate said about Catholics, and some of it was angry, and most of it was to correct what I took as misconceptions.  But I took it to better judgement to delete that post.  What you believe, is what you believe.  If you believe Jesus didnt exist, believe that, and if you believe Jesus is the son of God, believe that.  If you believe Muhammed was the last great prophet, whatever.

But that's all religion is, is beliefs.  Please understand that there are over a billion Muslims in the world.  Nearly a fifth of it.  Now I look and there's a lot of beautiful people there, in fact, most of the Islamic peoples of the world are good people, who do good things.  So what if Muhammed fought a war?  I'd argue it was a war for Jewish independence in Persia much like Maccabees, but really, who gives a damn?  It happened years and years ago, everyone involved is now a corpse.  There are a lot of people in the world who find guidence in the Quran, or the Bible.  If it helps them to become better people, so be it, dont knock them for it.  Fundamentalists would be screwed up religion or not.  

So please, be tolerant, on here and in life.  Islam, Judaism or Christianity are not the cause of what's wrong in the world.

EDIT:  In the past half hour I've been writing on and off, the topic's switched to slavery.  Go me, I've done it again :)


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: adosorken on November 21, 2003, 07:41:33 PM
Quote from: "toonski84"
Islam, Judaism or Christianity are not the cause of what's wrong in the world.

Very true. :)

The real problem is not in the religions themselves, but in how people have intolerance for the religions of others. Religions by themselves can be very enlightening and life-enriching...or if used improperly, can be painfully destructive.

And yeah, fundies would be the same with or without their religions. However...their religions give them a cause that they would not have without it. In essence...a religious shield. It is far more difficult to fight a religion than it is to fight an individual.

I can name someone locally who fits into this category but I will not.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Jocke The Beast on November 21, 2003, 08:22:48 PM
Quote
I can't understand the claim to lock this topic... We are just talking, arguing and expressing our opinions.

Agreed. We are some people here who has been talking about similar issues before *points at nathan, jofers..* and I've always enjoed a good "argument".


Back to topic (or as close to topic as I can get) :wink:

- I thought/still think it was right to attack Iraq and install democracy.
- I don't belive that Israel can be place on level with the palestinian terrorists
- I belive that violence sometimes is a necessary in order to retain democracy or to defeat terrorists that attack innocent people
- I can't understand how one can compare the actions that the Israel army has done with the hamas-actions. Israel army attacks terrorists and the hamas attacks civilians...
- I belive that Iraq was a threat to the "free world" and it's own inhabitants. That threat is now more or less gone...
- I belive in democracy and I think that it's every humans right to have it no matter where they live.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Rhiannon on November 21, 2003, 11:11:52 PM
funny how Iraq became a "threat" when Bush came into power. The 8 years that Clinton was in power, nothing was said about Iraq.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Diroga on November 21, 2003, 11:26:46 PM
that's the adminstration, different goals, ideal and beliefs.

hey Jocke, i agree with you. what politcal party do you affiliate.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Rhiannon on November 21, 2003, 11:48:27 PM
Yes, Republicans love taking America to war, while in the meantime they take money away from education, SSA and health funds to pump up the military. Plus the fact that every Bush that has gone into a public office does the voucher BS which enfuriates me to no end.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: na_th_an on November 21, 2003, 11:50:25 PM
Quote from: "Jocke The Beast"
- I thought/still think it was right to attack Iraq and install democracy.

I always was against this. The  excuse were mass destruction arms... Well, after one year... Where are they? They just don't exist. And about installing democracy, well, that's fine. But what would you think if americans would have take over your country to install whatever?

The very answer is simple: Petrol, petrol, petrol and more petrol.
Quote
- I don't belive that Israel can be place on level with the palestinian terrorists

You forget the Israeli assasinations. They also kill.
Quote
- I belive that violence sometimes is a necessary in order to retain democracy or to defeat terrorists that attack innocent people

Yeah, sure. But watch out what kind of violence. To me, those "collateral effects" are rubbish. Just an excuse.
Quote
- I can't understand how one can compare the actions that the Israel army has done with the hamas-actions. Israel army attacks terrorists and the hamas attacks civilians...

Not true. If you follow the links I provided you'll notice. In Spain, there are two TV channels that don't offer mangled info, so we can see the conflict from the two parties' point of view. Israel kills civilians. That's a fact that can't be refuted. And if not rewind to the 70's where concentration camps with thousands of palestinians were held. Sharon acted just like Hitler. Refer to the archives, that's the crude and objective truth. To me, that's *exactly* the same thing as the nazis did to the jews during the Third Reich. And then in the 80's conflicts at Lebanon. Those are facts, not interpretations. Read our recent history and you'll find out.
Quote
- I belive that Iraq was a threat to the "free world" and it's own inhabitants. That threat is now more or less gone...

Not iraq, but Sadam's government was a threat to the "free Iraq". Nothing to do with the rest of the world. Where are those pretended mass destruction arms? As I said many months ago: they just don't exist. They are just the biggest excuse in recent history.
Quote
- I belive in democracy and I think that it's every humans right to have it no matter where they live.

Completely agreed. But that doesn't imply America taking over a country.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Rhiannon on November 21, 2003, 11:54:25 PM
you make very good points nathan. If the UN couldnt find these WMD, then how will the US do it?


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: na_th_an on November 21, 2003, 11:54:32 PM
Quote from: "adosorken"
The real problem is not in the religions themselves, [...]


Great truth. What I think is that religion has been just an excuse during the last 2 thousand years. The really matter was money. Economic interests and nothing more. Religion? Just a way to brainwash people. The big guys behind the whole movement just want money.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Rhiannon on November 21, 2003, 11:56:08 PM
well in the US the tax deduction is really nice. And dont think for a second that just becuz the church is a "charity" that they arent making a profit.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: na_th_an on November 21, 2003, 11:57:19 PM
Quote from: "toonski84"
There are a lot of people in the world who find guidence in the Quran, or the Bible.  If it helps them to become better people, so be it, dont knock them for it.  Fundamentalists would be screwed up religion or not.
That was exactly what I was trying to express, but well worded :)

It's a great shame that most people think that the Quran tells people to become that cheap imitation of kamikazes.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Rhiannon on November 22, 2003, 12:02:43 AM
Quote from: "na_th_an"
It's a great shame that most people think that the Quran tells people to become that cheap imitation of kamikazes.


the most misunderstood concept of the Islam religion is the jihad (http://www.religioustolerance.org/isl_jihad.htm), which everyone thinks is "holy war" just cuz the media said so.  :roll:


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: oracle on November 22, 2003, 12:05:35 AM
:lol: We had a NZ band called "shihad" who had to change there name after sept 11...


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: na_th_an on November 22, 2003, 12:19:34 AM
Quote from: "oracle"
Spain


That's so true and our police forces are working against it. And I'm sure in your country there is also slavery. I don't know it, but it's for sure that many young girls are threatened in prostibles all around the world. What a sad thing.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: oracle on November 22, 2003, 12:48:03 AM
Not on a large scale in NZ. We're too isolated, and there's no market for underpaid people. In fact, the last case I remember that was like "slavery" was a few years ago, and it was an indian guy importing indians to cook in his indian takeaway place. Some habits die hard, I guess :roll:


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: RST on November 22, 2003, 12:56:03 AM
It's surprising how as soon as one person tried to get a "moment of silence", so to speak, for the victims of a the bombing, everyone felt like they had to feel it with arguments of why they are right and everyone else is wrong....

Just a thought.

Anyway, over four hundred American (and other) soldiers lie dead in Iraq (which, coincidently enough, happens to be a very oil-rich country), along with untold hundreds (thousands?) of civilians. No weapons of mass destruction were unearthed as their graves were being dug.

Regardless of whether or not humanitarian reasons justified the war in Iraq, it is clear that WMD - the sole original reason put fouth by the American goverment for invasion - was just a bunch of BS.

And for those who think it was also because of terrorists:
Sift through the propaganda the from the Bush administration - this reason was never directly said, merely implied by carefully worded rhetoric.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Agamemnus on November 22, 2003, 01:14:09 AM
Quote from: "RST"

WMD - the sole original reason put fouth by the American goverment for invasion


Not true.

Quote from: "Rhiannon"

funny how Iraq became a "threat" when Bush came into power. The 8 years that Clinton was in power, nothing was said about Iraq.


Again, not true.

It seems that the only people I argue with on these people don't get all their facts straight, just part of them.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: SJ Zero on November 22, 2003, 01:20:44 AM
No, of course not. there were also the always good "Saddam Hussein is a very very bad man. We should break into his house and kill his family!", and my personal favourite, "Aren't you glad he's dead?"

No, if you looked at the press as I did, WMDs were THE reason bush was pitching the war with. A breach of resolution 1411 or whatever it was called. Of course, since it wasn't, he's morally set America up to be invaded by whoever wants to do it, because after you start killing people you don't like just becase you don't like them, you can't go back to calling yourself moral, no matter what your pathetic justification for your actions.

Go lynch a man, and you'll see what I mean.

EDIT: And just in case you watch a lot of FOX news, there have been NO established links between Iraq + Saddam Hussein and Al Queda. Supposedly the US is fighting a war on terrorism, but it's doing it in an awfully roundabout way if they're going about attacking the countries with NO links to terrorism FIRST.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Agamemnus on November 22, 2003, 01:28:43 AM
Quote

EDIT: And just in case you watch a lot of FOX news, there have been NO established links between Iraq + Saddam Hussein and Al Queda. Supposedly the US is fighting a war on terrorism, but it's doing it in an awfully roundabout way if they're going about attacking the countries with NO links to terrorism FIRST.


In fact, if you watch just about half an hour of Fox News, you'll hear that most of the bad people killing coalition troops+iraqis inside Iraq are Al Qaeda terrorists.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: SJ Zero on November 22, 2003, 01:34:19 AM
Gotta love the American Media.  Just think, what would have happened if they had LOST the cold war against the fascists? Maybe Fox News really would be our "fair and balanced" news source?


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Agamemnus on November 22, 2003, 01:41:24 AM
Quote

Gotta love the American Media. Just think, what would have happened if they had LOST the cold war against the fascists? Maybe Fox News really would be our "fair and balanced" news source?


Well. Then, of course, neither Nek nor most of the people here would be alive, because the fascist Nazi Russian dogs would have nuked (with 100x more powerful nukes than hiroshima) most of the rest of the world just for fun. In retaliation, the US would have nuked Russian bases in Cuba, thus, with their big ass nukes (that are 1000x more powerful than hiroshima), destroying Puerto Rico, the southern US, New Zealand, Spain, and most of Puerto Rico in the process.

Basically all cities within 10 or so miles of the sea would be destroyed. . .


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: SJ Zero on November 22, 2003, 01:52:45 AM
yeeahhh. Riiiight. To be frank, I don't think either side is stupid enough to destroy the world. I mean, the fascists had nukes, but I'm pretty sure they realized the ramifications if they used them. I'm also pretty sure that even a yahoo like Ronald "you can't have star wars AND bedtime with bonzo" Reagan in charge, the thought of everyone everywhere dying just wasn't too appealing. ;p


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: toonski84 on November 22, 2003, 07:12:15 AM
The civilian death count, as reported by the associated press, was somewhere around 3400.  This was in April, based off a survey of half the nation's hospitals.  The real count is thought to be significantly higher, and it's been 7 months since then.

Just today, another 16 people were killed by a bomb.  Terrorists suck, at lack of a better thing to say.

But yes, both sides were stupid enough to destroy the world.  US
sub captains literally had the keys in place ready to turn in the Cuban Missile Crisis.  And Eisenhower had to dismiss the thought of nuking Korea in the war (it was a popular idea).  Also, I'm almost positive that Nixon is to blame for preventing China and Russia using nukes on each other in the 70s.  *sigh* He was a brilliant foreign policy leader if he was so damned power-corrupt domestically.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: na_th_an on November 22, 2003, 07:15:36 AM
I think there is a little bit of confusion here about cold war. Let's try to explain it:

1.- Nazis were the leading party in Germany from 1933 to 1945. Fascists. Nowadays it has to do with the Right wing.

2.- In the USSR (Rusia and the rest of the states) they were communists. Nowadays it has to do with the Left wing.

3.- USSR fought Germany in the WW II.

I needed to clarify this 'cause "fascist Nazi Russian dogs" is the biggest nonsense I've read in years. Now some facts:

1.- Unlike most of americans think, people in the USSR weren't crazy people who aimed to destroy the world. They were just like the USA: They wanted to have the millitar, economical and political supremacy over the world. In this aspect, USSR = USA, but with completely oposed economic systems (mangled communism vs. leeching capitalism) and concept of freedom (hidden dictatorship vs. democracy).

2.- In the cold war, all the world was in danger 'cause of the two big powers, not just 'cause of the USSR. USA also had nukes pointed to our asses, as well as USSR had. To me, all the nukes explode the same way, no matter if they are red or have nice white stripes.

3.- If you really think they "[...] would have nuked most of the rest of the world just for fun" you should learn to see things in perspective. There is something wrong with the general conception about the world matters. It is not so simple. Don't consider it as another G.I.Joe episode!


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: toonski84 on November 22, 2003, 07:24:29 AM
Russia fought with us in WWII, but it wasnt as pretty as you'd think.  Stalin had his own agenda for the war, and so did we.  By 1945 we'd broken off with Russia, and on his deathbed Roosevelt recognized that he'd be a postwar menace.  Churchill never trusted the man.

But Nate makes a good point.  After Stalin's death 5 years after they got the bomb, Kruschev came to power in a sort of power struggle.  He actually denounced Stalin's cruelty (though he crushed any and all resistence), and wanted to make peace with the US.  Talks were going fine until the U2 incident, and were further deterred by how little he respected JFK as a leader.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: TheBigBasicQ on November 22, 2003, 08:49:13 AM
Quote from: "na_th_an"
I think there is a little bit of confusion here about cold war. Let's try to explain it:

1.- Nazis were the leading party in Germany from 1933 to 1945. Fascists. Nowadays it has to do with the Right wing.

2.- In the USSR (Rusia and the rest of the states) they were communists. Nowadays it has to do with the Left wing.

3.- USSR fought Germany in the WW II.

I needed to clarify this 'cause "fascist Nazi Russian dogs" is the biggest nonsense I've read in years. Now some facts:

1.- Unlike most of americans think, people in the USSR weren't crazy people who aimed to destroy the world. They were just like the USA: They wanted to have the millitar, economical and political supremacy over the world. In this aspect, USSR = USA, but with completely oposed economic systems (mangled communism vs. leeching capitalism) and concept of freedom (hidden dictatorship vs. democracy).

2.- In the cold war, all the world was in danger 'cause of the two big powers, not just 'cause of the USSR. USA also had nukes pointed to our asses, as well as USSR had. To me, all the nukes explode the same way, no matter if they are red or have nice white stripes.

3.- If you really think they "[...] would have nuked most of the rest of the world just for fun" you should learn to see things in perspective. There is something wrong with the general conception about the world matters. It is not so simple. Don't consider it as another G.I.Joe episode!


You are so correct. The USSR saved everybody's butt in WWII. Show some respect for them people. AFAIAC USSR sheltered us from western political and more importantly military pressure :???: during 1940-1980s.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: adosorken on November 22, 2003, 09:06:53 AM
Quote from: "Agamemnus"
Quote from: "RST"
WMD - the sole original reason put fouth by the American goverment for invasion


Not true.

Very true. You're just eating up the Bush propaganda like candy, which is EXACTLY what they wanted.

Quote from: "Agamemnus"
Quote from: "Rhiannon"
funny how Iraq became a "threat" when Bush came into power. The 8 years that Clinton was in power, nothing was said about Iraq.

Again, not true.

Were you even sentient during the Clinton years? Iraq never entered the picture on a grand scale. I challenge you to prove me wrong.

Quote from: "Agamemnus"
It seems that the only people I argue with on these people don't get all their facts straight, just part of them.

The only fact being displayed here with overwhelming proof is the fact that you've been sold out. Also, you've yet to provide ANY solid proof to back up your claims. You're just yelling at people, saying they don't know this and they don't know that, when all in the know have provided heaps upon heaps of documented proof of their arguments. Kindly remove your head from GWB's posterior, if you know what I mean, and start looking for and listening to the truth.

Unless you ENJOY living in delusion?


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Rhiannon on November 22, 2003, 11:17:58 AM
one of my friends is in the military (didnt get shipped out fortunately) and he made it very clear to me what the war was about "Free Iraq, kill Saddam Hussian, install democracy, find WMD, fight terrorism, protect our freedom"  (this is no particular order)

So, let's see, so far Iraq doesnt seem very free to me when it's crawling with soldiers, i doubt we killed the sucker, democracy is prolly still a dream, where are the WMD, what terrorism, why do we need to protect our freedom when we werent being attacked in the first place?

This is just another Bush taking America to war, and it's backfiring on him now becuz his polls suck.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Agamemnus on November 22, 2003, 12:01:23 PM
Na_th_an, I was (unsuccesfully) trying to make fun of SJ Zero's confusion about Communism and fascism.

Nek, what about 1998? Rhiannon, Nek, I have nothing more to say to you.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: adosorken on November 22, 2003, 12:11:17 PM
Quote from: "Agamemnus"
Nek, what about 1998? Rhiannon, Nek, I have nothing more to say to you.

Operation Desert Fox was a recon job at the request of Britain and Saudi Arabia to stop Iraq's transfer of missles. The US was involved for a mere 70 hours. How does that relate to what Bush is doing right now? Not to mention the fact that this never even hit major television circuits (if it had, I would have heard about it). The world was still fixated on Clinton's love life.

Nothing more to say? Perhaps because you can't win the debate and you know it? Hrm...no surprise. :D


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: toonski84 on November 22, 2003, 12:38:56 PM
another note about 1998 is that they acutally *found* the weapons, and we massively bombed the proper facilities using good intelligence with the world's support, quickly, quietly.  It's called foreign politics done right.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Rhiannon on November 22, 2003, 12:41:32 PM
Quote from: "toonski84"
another note about 1998 is that they acutally *found* the weapons, and we massively bombed the proper facilities using good intelligence with the world's support, quickly, quietly.  It's called foreign politics done right.


so i wonder what GWB is looking for now?  :lol:


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: toonski84 on November 22, 2003, 12:48:19 PM
It's not *that* bad.  I think what happened is he had the agenda to attack Iraq after 9/11 (see: memos), and he really did think Saddam had bio. weapons or something, used it as the reason, and when it was confirmed he didn't he couldnt back down for political reasons.  It's something you could expect of a politician, them being the scum of the earth.

However, we really are screwed there.  The announcement was made that there will be over 100,000 troops in Iraq until 2006, compared to 130,000 now.  We lose 20-30 soldiers a month on average, over 70 this month.  Those arent going to be good stats at the end of this, not even counting civilian losses.  We can't leave until Iraq is stable...


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: SJ Zero on November 22, 2003, 02:32:49 PM
Quote from: "Agamemnus"
Na_th_an, I was (unsuccesfully) trying to make fun of SJ Zero's confusion about Communism and fascism.

Nek, what about 1998? Rhiannon, Nek, I have nothing more to say to you.


No confusion, Communism is an economic system in which wealth is distributed equally among the masses because the workers own the means of production.

Fascism is a form of government in which a authoritarian person rules a country with an iron fist, usually using extreme measures to eliminate dissent.

The one who is confused may be you. IF we were going to war against communism, rather than fascism, we really would be nothing more than greedy capitalist pigs. Of course, we weren't. We were fighting greedy and cruel leaders like Stalin and Castro, who are fascist leaders.  We were fighting the power hungry regimes which seem to be part of the Soviet Communist package. We were NOT fighting so we could take the means of production and rip them from the hands of the workers to put them back in the  hands of the capitalists

Personally, I'd be fascinated to see what a pure democracy like switzerland paired with communism would be like. With no people in power, would communism work? I don't know...


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: na_th_an on November 22, 2003, 02:50:43 PM
So you mean that the USA is some kind of hero that frees countries from their slavery, without wanting anything in return? I strongly doubt so.

USA fought Castro and the USSR not to free the poor citizens, but to keep being the 1st economic power. That simple. No hero tales here.

Quote
We were fighting greedy and cruel leaders like Stalin and Castro, who are fascist leaders. We were fighting the power hungry regimes which seem to be part of the Soviet Communist package. We were NOT fighting so we could take the means of production and rip them from the hands of the workers to put them back in the hands of the capitalists


Then, what happened with Pinochet? What happened with Noriega? Both of them were supported by the USA to install true <capitalist> dictatorships. Why the US still selling weapons to ultra-right wing paramilitars in South America?

USA have just fought dictators when they were communists.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Agamemnus on November 22, 2003, 03:15:19 PM
Quote from: "SJ Zero"

The one who is confused may be you.


Nope, "we" were fighting communism.

PS: What you describe is called SOCIALISM.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: toonski84 on November 22, 2003, 03:20:34 PM
The cold war was kind of messed up.  A political tool, yeah, look at McCarthyism, but there was a general fear of communism among state officials.  By the end of World War II, we knew what Stalin was doing, and we knew he was power hungry, and wanted to take over countries.  The USSR, even before the end of the war, was beginning to take over countries.  Containment was the goal of the US since Truman, and it was a genuine concern for the defense of America.

On that note, we liked dictators.  They were dictators, brutal disgusting warlords, but support them.  It's a US custom to put a dictator in a third world country, and when noone likes him, give another dictator weapons to oust the present one, starting the cycle over.  3 more dictators and we get a free toaster.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Zap on November 22, 2003, 03:23:17 PM
Have an of you seen 'Bowling for Colombine'?

Yes, this is relevant to the thread.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Agamemnus on November 22, 2003, 03:30:52 PM
Quote from: "toonski"

On that note, we liked dictators. They were dictators, brutal disgusting warlords, but support them. It's a US custom to put a dictator in a third world country, and when noone likes him, give another dictator weapons to oust the present one, starting the cycle over. 3 more dictators and we get a free toaster.


Yes, yes. Very true, very true. But it is a difficult and expensive proposition to establish capitalistic democracy instead of dictatorship. It's hard enough establishing democracy in Afganistan and Iraq, for instance. That's only two countries. The US had to deal with many more back in the cold war. Also, with new technology and organizational ideas, it is now much easier to establish capitalistic democracy than dictatorship. It's also impossible to find a good dictator nowadays. . .


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: red_Marvin on November 22, 2003, 03:38:53 PM
Zap: Yes I have, it was weird, some people saw
the right to own a gun as a reason to own one.
They couldn't explain it further like:
-Why do you own a gun?
-Because I have the right to...
I went back and forth from laughing, because they were acting so
weird, to scared, because this is the reality...


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: SJ Zero on November 22, 2003, 04:06:40 PM
Quote from: "Agamemnus"
Quote from: "SJ Zero"

The one who is confused may be you.


Nope, "we" were fighting communism.

PS: What you describe is called SOCIALISM.


No, it isn't.

From dictionary.com:
A theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members.

A scheme of equalizing the social conditions of life; specifically, a scheme which contemplates the abolition of inequalities in the possession of property, as by distributing all wealth equally to all, or by holding all wealth in common for the equal use and advantage of all.

Note: At different times, and in different countries, various schemes pertaining to socialism in government and the conditions of domestic life, as well as in the distribution of wealth, have been called communism.

Living in what is considered a socialist country myself(canada), let me assure you that we don't have much "ownership" of anything. We have high taxes and a relatively liberal government who likes giving money to poor slackers(Mike Harris is my hero! :p). The Cold War managed to warp the perceived meaning of the words, but it is, at heart, the same thing; an economic system, and nothing more.

Here's what socialism is:

   1. Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
   2. The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved.

In this, the government owns the means of production. It's meant as an intermediary between capitalism and communism. In practice, many governments like the idea of redistributing wealth far more than the idea of giving up all that power, while others never meant to become communist, and just like the idea of socialism by itself.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Agamemnus on November 22, 2003, 04:16:20 PM
nope, you just proved yourself wrong.

Quote from: "SJ Zero"

No confusion, Communism is an economic system in which wealth is distributed equally among the masses because the workers own the means of production.


Communism is not an intermediary of anything. Communism is a socialism, with a twist: the idea is that you actively instigate rebellion in non-communist countries until everyone is communist.

Russian communism isn't even close to socialism. But it's not fascism, you fool!


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: SJ Zero on November 22, 2003, 04:35:03 PM
Quote from: "Agamemnus"
nope, you just proved yourself wrong.

Quote from: "SJ Zero"

No confusion, Communism is an economic system in which wealth is distributed equally among the masses because the workers own the means of production.


Communism is not an intermediary of anything. Communism is a socialism, with a twist: the idea is that you actively instigate rebellion in non-communist countries until everyone is communist.

Russian communism isn't even close to socialism. But it's not fascism, you fool!


GOD DAMNIT, READ WHAT I AM SAYING!!!!!

SOCIALISM IS AN INTERMEDIATE ON THE WAY TO COMMUNISM.

COMMUNISM IS NOT A FORM OF GOVERNMENT.

COMMUNISM IS A ECONOMIC SYSTEM.

SOCIALISM IS AN ECONOMIC SYSTEM.

CAPITALISM IS AN ECONOMIC SYSTEM.

FASCISM IS A FORM OF GOVERNMENT.

MONARCHY IS A FORM OF GOVERNMENT.

DEMOCRACY IS A FORM OF GOVERNMENT.


A COMMUNIST COUNTRY CAN BE A DEMOCRACY, OR A LIMITED MONARCHY, OR A FASCIST DICTATORSHIP.

A SOCIALIST COUNTRY CAN BE A DEMOCRACY, A MONARCHY, OR A FASCIST DICTATORSHIP.

A CAPITALIST COUNTRY CAN BE A DEMOCRACY, A MONARCHY, OR A FASCIST DICTATORSHIP.

Understand?

Edit:

P.S. don't bother responding to ANY of my posts again until you actually READ them.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Agamemnus on November 22, 2003, 04:54:54 PM
Quote

GOD DAMNIT, READ WHAT I AM SAYING!!!!!

SOCIALISM IS AN INTERMEDIATE ON THE WAY TO COMMUNISM.


Ehh...regardless, socialism and capitalism are not the same thing as communism. Communism is an embellishment of socialism.

Quote

COMMUNISM IS NOT A FORM OF GOVERNMENT.

Wrong... socialism is an economic system. Communism isn't.

Quote

FASCISM IS A FORM OF GOVERNMENT.

And the Russian government's form of government was COMMUNISM.

Quote

A COMMUNIST COUNTRY CAN BE A DEMOCRACY, OR A LIMITED MONARCHY, OR A FASCIST DICTATORSHIP.

No. A communist country is a communist country. End of story.

Quote

A SOCIALIST COUNTRY CAN BE A DEMOCRACY, A MONARCHY, OR A FASCIST DICTATORSHIP.


Nope. Monarchies or fascist dictatorships can never be socialist, because in monarchies, the King owns all the land. In a fascist dictatorship, the oppressed peoples own nothing, not even their life.

    Democracies can't be socialist, either, because a democracy means that the people have a right to their property, life, and freedom. A country, such as Canada (or the US), could have a socialist policy on some issues, but never be socialist.

Quote

A CAPITALIST COUNTRY CAN BE A DEMOCRACY, A MONARCHY, OR A FASCIST DICTATORSHIP.


A capitalist country cannot be a fascist dictatorship or a monarchy, because capitalist countries must grant property rights to the people.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: SJ Zero on November 22, 2003, 04:59:02 PM
Go away.  If you can't condescend to even bother reading what I have to say, why should you have the right to respond to me?


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Agamemnus on November 22, 2003, 05:06:16 PM
I answered every one of your misconceptions one by one.

That is what you seem to be saying. I answered. Now, do you have any coherent response?


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: SJ Zero on November 22, 2003, 05:08:08 PM
Try actually reading my posts, moron. You're insulting us both by rushing off to post your comments and neglecting to read what I have to say.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Agamemnus on November 22, 2003, 05:11:58 PM
I did read what you said. I read both the dictonary.com thing and your part of that post. You are correct on some parts of the definition of socialism, but you are wrong on others.

Let's not continue name calling, now.

PS: moron is worse than fool. So I reserve the right to call you a fool at least six (6) more times.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: SJ Zero on November 22, 2003, 05:15:21 PM
Quote from: "Agamemnus"
I did read what you said. I read both the dictonary.com thing and your part of that post. You are correct on some parts of the definition of socialism, but you are wrong on others.

Let's not continue name calling, now.

PS: moron is worse than fool. So I reserve the right to call you a fool at least six (6) more times.


You have a right to call me a fool just as soon as you tell me where I said *ANYTHING* about communism being an intermediary form of ANYTHING. Read closely now, I don't want to have to call you it again.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Agamemnus on November 22, 2003, 05:19:19 PM
Don't you remember that you said the Russian gov't was fascist? That's why I called you a fool.

Quote

In this, the government owns the means of production. It's meant as an intermediary between capitalism and communism.


And yes, I did word it wrong, but communism is not on the same line (I'm repeating myself) as capitalism or socialism.

And notice how many times dictionary.com say COLLECTIVE OWNERSHIP for the COMMON ADVANTAGE OF ALL ITS MEMBERS?

Quote

 1. Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.


Now, from that you get the silly idea that a Monarchy can be socialist?


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: SJ Zero on November 22, 2003, 05:31:13 PM
Quote from: "Agamemnus"
Don't you remember that you said the Russian gov't was fascist? That's why I called you a fool.


Do you even understand what a fascist government is?
Again, from dictionary.com
Quote from: "dictionary.com"

A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.


Sounds like a pretty good description of Soviet Russia to me. Who is the fool here, again?

Quote

And yes, I did word it wrong, but communism is not on the same line (I'm repeating myself) as capitalism or socialism.

Yeah, stupid Karl Marx. What was he thinking? What a douchebag, I mean, the father of communism should know a thing like that! Why would *HE* of all people think socialism was a step towards communism?

Quote
And notice how many times dictionary.com say COLLECTIVE OWNERSHIP for the COMMON ADVANTAGE OF ALL ITS MEMBERS?

Do you not understand what collective ownership means? Put simply, it means the people collectively own everything. It's the abolition of personal property; "Give what you can, take what you need". Sound familiar?

Quote
Now, from that you get the silly idea that a Monarchy can be socialist?


This silly little socialist country called Canada. I guess you haven't heard about it, but it's widely considered to be socialist because of it's high taxes taken for the purpose of redistributing wealth for the common good. Gee...why does that sound familiar?


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Agamemnus on November 22, 2003, 05:52:30 PM
Quote

Sounds like a pretty good description of Soviet Russia to me. Who is the fool here, again?

Read what a dictator is. And read how the Soviets chose their leaders.

Quote

Yeah, stupid Karl Marx. What was he thinking? What a douchebag, I mean, the father of communism should know a thing like that! Why would *HE* of all people think socialism was a step towards communism?


I think you're saying that? Karl Marx is the father of SOCIALISM.

Quote

Do you not understand what collective ownership means? Put simply, it means the people collectively own everything. It's the abolition of personal property; "Give what you can, take what you need". Sound familiar?


What's your point? A monarchy can't be socialist.

Quote

This silly little socialist country called Canada. I guess you haven't heard about it, but it's widely considered to be socialist because of it's high taxes taken for the purpose of redistributing wealth for the common good. Gee...why does that sound familiar?


The US has high taxes, as well. Probably even higher than Canada's. Canada is not socialist. It has a socialist policy. If canada was Socialist, then I'd be able to immigrate to Canada and ask the closest McDonald's for a burger, and they'd give it to me for free. If Canada was socialist, it would be a planned economy. Canada does not have a planned economy. You might claim it does, because you don't even know what a planned economy means. Canada is a capitalist, socialist leaning country.

Although I wouldn't be surprised if Canada became a planned economy. With a leader like that. . .


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: RST on November 22, 2003, 08:12:04 PM
Admin:
Please lock. This has gotten way off topic and is turning into a flame war.

Aga & SJ:
Neither of you will ever concede the other is correct. This "debate" is pointless, but if you want to continue it, please do so via PM. No offense meant.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Agamemnus on November 22, 2003, 08:18:26 PM
I don't think locking a post is an appropriate way of conceding defeat.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Jocke The Beast on November 22, 2003, 08:18:35 PM
Nathan: Sorry for the big delay, but here are some of my answers/thoughts on your reply:

Quote
But what would you think if americans would have take over your country to install whatever?

If I had lived in a country that had a dictator who had used chemical weapons on us and a goverment that was a total dictatorship...I would be very happy if americans would come to us and install democracy too.

Quote
You forget the Israeli assasinations. They also kill.

Yes, they kill. They kill Hamas terrorists (and yes, sometimes innocent people get killed too, but the different is that the Israel army doesn't have that as their goal, it's a very sad output). On the other side the Hamas terrorists (and all the other terrorists) attacks more civilians then military targets.

Quote
Not true. If you follow the links I provided you'll notice. In Spain, there are two TV channels that don't offer mangled info, so we can see the conflict from the two parties' point of view. Israel kills civilians. That's a fact that can't be refuted.

I'll get back to this issue, must read your links first...

Quote
Where are those pretended mass destruction arms?

The search isn't over yet, but yes I agree that it's a bit alarming that no such weapons have been found yet.

Quote
Completely agreed. But that doesn't imply America taking over a country.

To say it like that is to exaggerate a bit. America (and the coalition) isn't taking over Iraq, they're arranging so that the Iraq people can have a democracy with elections and be free at last.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: toonski84 on November 22, 2003, 08:18:40 PM
okay, oracle, pay up, it turned into a flamewar :)


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Agamemnus on November 22, 2003, 08:27:03 PM
Says you. Who are you to be the judge, jury, and executioner?  :o

 :lol:


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: adosorken on November 22, 2003, 10:48:27 PM
I agree. Once the insults start to fly, it has gone from a debate to a flame fest. This topic needs to be locked.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Agamemnus on November 22, 2003, 11:10:51 PM
Does it only "need" to be locked because of everyone's inane arguments against everything I say?


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: RST on November 22, 2003, 11:15:12 PM
No, it needs to be locked because some people, you included, have started attacking other people rather than their arguments.

And also look at the first post and see if you can find any similarities between it and your debate. To say this thread has gone off on a tangent is understatement.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Agamemnus on November 22, 2003, 11:31:40 PM
No, I haven't. And, look at the posts that cause me to respond with what I do. People are combining various issues into one. I can't just ignore untruths when I see them.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: na_th_an on November 23, 2003, 12:19:30 AM
We could just get along, confide in Aga and SJZero leting the thing be, and keep with (IMHO) a great topic with great arguments. I was enjoying the arguing before this became a definitions war. To clarify things, just take that Marx book outta the shelf and read it on :)

Quote from: "Jocke The Beast"
Yes, they kill. They kill Hamas terrorists (and yes, sometimes innocent people get killed too, but the different is that the Israel army doesn't have that as their goal, it's a very sad output). On the other side the Hamas terrorists (and all the other terrorists) attacks more civilians then military targets.


Yeah, sure their efforts are against Hammas terrorists, but they are something a bit out of line and somewhat random. That's why so many innocent people die. That's why I call those actions terrorism as well, 'cause when Sharon decides to strike they put big tanks over poor neighbourhoods that destroy whole houses leaving many innocent people murdered or homeless. Attacking Palestinian territories with war planes and bombing them 'cause it's said that Hammas activists hide in there is also a monstruosity. If you go there to hunt terrorists, don't bomb an entire neighbourhood from air. "Collateral Effects" are just too much here. That is called terror as well, IMHO.

Actual facts:

Quote
19 May : Israeli troops killed a Palestinian child and wounded 14 others north of Gaza Strip.

16 May : A Palestinian youth was killed Friday early morning during a Israeli military onslaught on Rafah city, east of Gaza Strip.

15 May : Israeli occupation forces gunned down five Palestinians during the second deadly Gaza Strip raid in as many days.

14 May : Israeli occupation forces (IOF) killed early Wednesday three Palestinians and wounded more than 30 others in two separate incidents south of the Gaza Strip. The three killed were Palestinian policemen shot by Israeli undercover units.

12 May : Three killed in Rafah and Khan Younis and another in Qalqilya.

9 May : A Palestinian toddler was killed Wednesday when Israeli tanks opened fire at residential neighborhoods in the southern Gaza Strip town of Khan Younis.

3 May : Israeli forces kill UK cameraman James Miller in the Gaza Strip.

1 May : Israeli forces kill 15 Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza during a major punitive incursion.

21 April : A Palestinian schoolboy was shot dead in Qalqilia.

20 April : Israeli forces shot dead 7 Palestinians in a major military incursion into the West Bank.

18 April : Three Palestinian children were shot dead by Israeli forces in Rafah.

16 April : Israeli forces carried out an extra-judicial execution of a suspected "terrorist" in Hebron.

13 April : Two Palestinian civilians were killed, one in Hebron, one in Gaza.

12 April : Tom Hurndal, with the International Solidarity Movement, is shot by an Israeli sniper and lies brain dead. Later, when his parents come to visit him in a Gaza hospital, Israeli troops deliberately fire on their car.

10 April : 13 Palestinians are killed in Gaza during another Israeli punitive incursion.

9 April : Seven Palestinians are killed and dozens injured when Israel forces fire on civilian areas from U.S.-supplied F16 fighters and Apache helicopters.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Agamemnus on November 23, 2003, 12:32:35 AM
I read that na_th_an. Firstly, the major problem with something like this is that it cannot be proven true by an internet source. I could just go and say "oh qbasicnews.com is a terrorist front for radical islam" and would the US gov't go and "shut it down"? Prolly yes, but that's not exactly my point, harhar.

Second of all. Second of all. There is a difference between being killed on purpose and being killed in the crossfire.

How often does this website report terrorists crossing into Israel? What are soldiers supposed to do? They don't know why a person jumps over a fence and runs over to the other side. They don't want to get killed by a suicide bomber. Sometimes civilians, often stupid civilians, get killed. Same goes with rock throwing or slingshots.

How is an Israeli soldier supposed to know in a split second whether that particular Palestinian has a gun, a camera, or a slingshot? If you were put in this situation hundreds of times a day, where someone suddenly jumped into the street and was holding something that looked at a gun, how many seconds would you pause to look at it? Would you stick your head out of the tank? Quite a number of Israeli soldiers have stuck their heads of the tank, and paid a heavy price for their "consideration".


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: na_th_an on November 23, 2003, 12:42:33 AM
Quote from: "Agamemnus"
I read that na_th_an. Firstly, the major problem with something like this is that it cannot be proven true by an internet source. I could just go and say "oh qbasicnews.com is a terrorist front for radical islam" and would the US gov't go and "shut it down"? Prolly yes, but that's not exactly my point, harhar.


Well, during the whole year I've seen images of almost every action listed on TV. From different sources. As I said, it's great that they show everything on Spanish TV, both sides of the problem, not just one.

And I won't call "dying in crossfire" when innocent people are in their homes and they get bombed by F-16.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Agamemnus on November 23, 2003, 01:06:35 AM
Quote

And I won't call "dying in crossfire" when innocent people are in their homes and they get bombed by F-16.


Israel destroys homes of terrorists.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: toonski84 on November 23, 2003, 04:25:54 AM
You can't bomb a house without taking out the ones next to it.  That's how bombs work.  You kill a person in a house, you bomb his wife and children, and neighbors.

or are you suggesting that everyone in Palestine is a terrorist?  Israel has been placing their civilians in land stolen from Palestiniens - not in 1948, but NOW.  That wall they're building is the latest escalation, entrapping 10s of thousands of Palestiniens and takes away their land.  Land grabbing's at the center of the entire conflict between Israel and Palestine.

I can understand, and even accept one being in support of Israel in the whole issue.  But statements like those are simply audacious and poorly thought out.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: adosorken on November 23, 2003, 10:49:37 AM
AFAIK, Palestine and Israel have been fighting over land ownership for centuries, trying to control "the holy land". As I said earlier...religion is a major factor.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Rhiannon on November 23, 2003, 11:45:12 AM
What i find completely ironic is how the US rushes out to instill "democracy" in some foreign nation when the US itself is a republic. Go figure.  :roll:


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Agamemnus on November 23, 2003, 12:24:30 PM
Quote from: "toonski"

You can't bomb a house without taking out the ones next to it. That's how bombs work.

Wrong.

Quote

You kill a person in a house, you bomb his wife and children, and neighbors.


That person has already killed himself in a terrorist act. The wife and children aren't going to be in that house anymore, because they know it will be bombed. This "husband" knew what he was getting his family into. Instead of persuading him to stay not to leave his family homeless, he goes out, kills innocent people, and leaves his family homeless. If that family was stupid enough to stay in the house, then he leaves them dead.

Quote

or are you suggesting that everyone in Palestin[ian territory] is a terrorist?

No. Are you suggesting I'm suggesting that everyone in Palestinian territory is a terrorist?

Quote

Israel has been placing their civilians in land stolen from Palestiniens - not in 1948, but NOW. That wall they're building is the latest escalation, entrapping 10s of thousands of Palestiniens and takes away their land. Land grabbing's at the center of the entire conflict between Israel and Palestine.


That's right. Land. The land that the countries surrounding Israel wanted to take away from the Israelis who bought it, drive them to the sea, and kill them.

Quote

I can understand, and even accept one being in support of Israel in the whole issue. But statements like those are simply audacious and poorly thought out.


Your statements are audacious and poorly thought out.

Quote from: "Nek"

AFAIK, Palestine and Israel have been fighting over land ownership for centuries, trying to control "the holy land". As I said earlier...religion is a major factor.


Read a history book. "centuries"? "Palestine"? PALESTINE *is* Israel, and as you should know, the Palestinian Intafada began 20 years ago, with the help of Arafat the Terrorist and his friends in the Arab world, like Saddam Hussein.

Quote from: "Rhiannon"

What i find completely ironic is how the US rushes out to instill "democracy" in some foreign nation when the US itself is a republic.


The US is a representative democracy, like all democracies in the world, and it instills representative democracies.

-----------------

I'm not arguing with any of you anymore on this, or any, issue. You have thoroughly demonstrated your lack of historical knowledge and a complete lack of analytical skills.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: na_th_an on November 23, 2003, 12:31:12 PM
Agamemnus, I can't understand how an intelligent person like I know you are can say such kind of atrocities and nonsenses.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: SJ Zero on November 23, 2003, 12:38:12 PM
You guys are right, I'm just going to drop it. I can't argue with a person who seems to want to make up his own definitions as he goes along, and argues against the dictionary.com definitions. I guess the post eariler by Nek really summed it up nicely.

Ag, the only thing I can ask you to do is look at The communist Manifesto by Karl Marx (http://www.anu.edu.au/polsci/marx/classics/manifesto.html), and read up on the election which became the turning point for one of Europes most evil mens rise to fascist power, Adolph Hitler (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GER1933.htm).


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: adosorken on November 23, 2003, 12:45:21 PM
Quote from: "Agamemnus"
The US is a representative democracy, like all democracies in the world, and it instills representative democracies.

Each governing state is a representative democracy...the United States of America in and of itself is a Republic. Sorry to say but you've only got half the answer correct, dude.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: na_th_an on November 23, 2003, 12:47:43 PM
Well, Hitler based his ideology in Nietzche's "superman" concept, that doesn't mean that Netzche was a razist fascist.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: SJ Zero on November 23, 2003, 01:33:11 PM
Quote from: "na_th_an"
Well, Hitler based his ideology in Nietzche's "superman" concept, that doesn't mean that Netzche was a razist fascist.


erm...wha--? The reason I mentioned hitler is because he was elected into power, meaning that the way that a dictator gets into power is irrelevant in terms of whether a government is fascist or not. In fact, Mussolini's Fascists(the original fascists, BTW) began as a party of a democratic state as well, though IIRC, he didn't win any elections until the King of Italy appointed him as the prime minister over the heads of the parliament, after which, the new election laws ensured a 2/3 majority in the parliament.  It all went downhill from there.

BTW, Nietzshe's superman transcended man by being better intellectually and through sheer will-power. It had nothing to do with genetics. Hitlers superman was a twisted and unholy result of eugenics. The two are incomperable.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: adosorken on November 23, 2003, 01:36:55 PM
Hehehe SJ, he said based, not copied :D plus there are quite a few common threads there too...although it's not correct to say that Hitler was mimicking Nietzche, there are some similarities no less...


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: SJ Zero on November 23, 2003, 02:00:23 PM
Yeah, but what does it have to do with my post, which as far as I can tell, is the only reference to hitler in the thread?


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: adosorken on November 23, 2003, 02:08:59 PM
I have no idea. :???:

:D


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: TheBigBasicQ on November 23, 2003, 02:52:10 PM
Just that everyone knows, I strongly back Israel. I myself have known and experienced 'terrorism'. These fundamentalists, rebel groups, terrorist groups are all the same to me. They dont *care* about anything. So anyone shouldnt form their opinions without any actual knowledge of what these people are doing.

Israeli and Indian military has been defamed for killing 'innocent civilians' in Palestine and Kashmir respectively. Many lies have been spread and many things have been hyped about them. This has always been the 'feature' of the media.

So lets all just drop the subject because I can see no one here has witnessed any actual incident or has any first hand info about these problems(except me).


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: SJ Zero on November 23, 2003, 03:13:00 PM
I'd be all for that, TBBQ, but the news goes on, and the people supplying the weapons know just as much as we do.

The fighting has been going on so long though, that I don't really understand why anyone cares anymore. It's been decades and decades since this all started, and everyone thinks they can end it with some magical formula. The truth is, I don't think it will *EVER* end until both sides have slaughtered each other.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: TheBigBasicQ on November 23, 2003, 03:30:29 PM
Quote from: "SJ Zero"
...some magical formula. The truth is, I don't think it will *EVER* end until both sides have slaughtered each other.


I was just about to say that =)


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: adosorken on November 23, 2003, 03:37:23 PM
It's a well-established fact that anyone who's experienced such a thing is going to back whatever element opposes the problem. Hence, TBBQ backs Israel. :)

I don't back anyone, I think all countries in this world are a buncha schmucks. It really wouldn't matter to me if Israel and Palestine blew each other away. Or, if the USA and Iraq blew each other away. It really makes no difference to me. All it is is a buncha religious idiots blowing each other up coz they don't like the other's god (Afghanistan), or they think their god is right (USA), or they can't ever agree on who's land is more holy (Israel/Palestine). It's all BS to me. Let them all die.

And that is just that. Period!


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: SJ Zero on November 23, 2003, 03:40:19 PM
You're so cheery and happy. ;)


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: adosorken on November 23, 2003, 03:50:20 PM
Aint it great? ;)


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: na_th_an on November 23, 2003, 04:02:06 PM
Yeah, of course. he he

But I would never back Israel. To me both parties are to blame of such flow of killing. I've listed my arguments, they are not interpretations but facts. I haven't listed Israeli casualties 'cause we all know them, there was no need to list them.

My final quote: In the Israeli-Palestinian conflict there is not a "good party" and a "bad party". They are both bad. End of discussion. Call them terrorists or soldiers, call it war or guerrilla, call it terror attacks or military actions. Just the same rubbish: Innocent people die 'cause a few people want more money.

I am not for Palestinians nor for Israelis. I just want to make you see how Israelis are fighting flies with cannons thanks the US, and how a bunch of Palestinian insane people (Hammas) just hit blindly. Just two sides of the same nonsense.

I was called "nazi" by Flexibal in the past for my ideas. Funny thing, uh? I don't blame him 'cause he is directly concerned, but people should learn to look things in perspective. That makes people intelligent and coherent.

Those conflicts aren't BLACK vs WHITE, GIJOE vs COBRA, CAPTAIN AMERICA vs RED SKULL, ITCHY vs SCRATCHY. That only happens in comics. In the real life, there isn't good and evil, but different interests.

There is a nice quote that I like... "What would happen if there is a war... and nobody went to fight?". We should work for that to happen. It is relatively easy:

Be intelligent, don't fear who's different and COEXIST.

(http://www.mind-surf.net/coexist.jpg)


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: adosorken on November 23, 2003, 04:06:28 PM
Well said, na_th_an. :) And with that, this is my final post on this subject as well. There's just nothing left to say...


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: oracle on November 23, 2003, 05:10:14 PM
I don't know if this should be locked or not.... I wasn't here yesterday (never am on a sunday), and I would have locked it then, but it's all calmed down now.

Continue debating/arguing/whatever :)


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Diroga on November 23, 2003, 05:23:05 PM
is this the largest post/forum/whatever you call it


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: SJ Zero on November 23, 2003, 05:25:51 PM
Quote from: "oracle"
I don't know if this should be locked or not.... I wasn't here yesterday (never am on a sunday), and I would have locked it then, but it's all calmed down now.

Continue debating/arguing/whatever :)


That seems like a strange policy to me -- lock threads when people inside them disagree? I think there's a fine line you have to contemplate before you do something like that, if just so flame wars don't spread like a disease to the rest of the forum.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: oracle on November 23, 2003, 10:07:38 PM
Yesterday everybody wanted it locked.

I'm quite happy to let this thread go on, there's only been some small name-calling and that calmed down by itself.

I never said I'd lock a thread when people disagreed about something in it...


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: TheBigBasicQ on November 24, 2003, 11:16:50 AM
Quote from: "na_th_an"
Yeah, of course. he he

But I would never back Israel. To me both parties are to blame of such flow of killing. I've listed my arguments, they are not interpretations but facts. I haven't listed Israeli casualties 'cause we all know them, there was no need to list them.

My final quote: In the Israeli-Palestinian conflict there is not a "good party" and a "bad party". They are both bad. End of discussion. Call them terrorists or soldiers, call it war or guerrilla, call it terror attacks or military actions. Just the same rubbish: Innocent people die 'cause a few people want more money.

I am not for Palestinians nor for Israelis. I just want to make you see how Israelis are fighting flies with cannons thanks the US, and how a bunch of Palestinian insane people (Hammas) just hit blindly. Just two sides of the same nonsense.

I was called "nazi" by Flexibal in the past for my ideas. Funny thing, uh? I don't blame him 'cause he is directly concerned, but people should learn to look things in perspective. That makes people intelligent and coherent.

Those conflicts aren't BLACK vs WHITE, GIJOE vs COBRA, CAPTAIN AMERICA vs RED SKULL, ITCHY vs SCRATCHY. That only happens in comics. In the real life, there isn't good and evil, but different interests.

There is a nice quote that I like... "What would happen if there is a war... and nobody went to fight?". We should work for that to happen. It is relatively easy:

Be intelligent, don't fear who's different and COEXIST.

(http://www.mind-surf.net/coexist.jpg)


Who gave you the facts? Let me guess....erm.....the media?  :lol:


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: adosorken on November 24, 2003, 11:28:40 AM
Quote from: "Agamemnus"
That person has already killed himself in a terrorist act. The wife and children aren't going to be in that house anymore, because they know it will be bombed. This "husband" knew what he was getting his family into. Instead of persuading him to stay not to leave his family homeless, he goes out, kills innocent people, and leaves his family homeless. If that family was stupid enough to stay in the house, then he leaves them dead.

That is the most ignorant thing I've ever read in my life, outside of some fundamentalist Christian babbling of course. Wow. Just when I thought it couldn't get any worse.

Oh yeah, I'm sure some guy wakes up one morning and says "OK, I'm going to betray my family, rush out to slaughter innocent people, and wait for my house to get nuked while my family flees to safety". Sorry, it just doesn't work that way. In fact, most of these so-called "terrorists" do these "terroristic acts" to protect their own families from what they consider "the enemy".

And yes...a bomb landing on one house will easily obliterate all houses in the vicinity...how many houses it wipes out with it depends on its poundage and the immediate density of housing units.

I wanted to let this issue rest but sometimes ignorance just prompts me to speak more...


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Rhiannon on November 24, 2003, 11:29:07 AM
Quote from: "Agamemnus"
The US is a representative democracy, like all democracies in the world, and it instills representative democracies.


http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html#Govt

Quote
Government type:  
Constitution-based federal republic; strong democratic tradition  


hmmm....CIA must be wrong...I always knew they were dumb :roll:

Besides, i'm sure in school you used to say the pledge of allegience, but if you didnt, let me refresh your memory:
Quote
I pledge allegience to the flag of the United States of America, and to the REPUBLIC for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.


You may be seated.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: na_th_an on November 24, 2003, 11:43:36 AM
Quote from: "TheBigBasicQfacts"
Let me guess....erm.....the media?  :lol:


I think there is nothing to laugh of. I consider it is clear that you are laughing at my statements so you are laughing at me.

Yeah, the media. A nice combination of local TV channels (one of our cameramen was killed by the Americans who claimed that they mistook his camera with a bazooka), CNN, Al Yashira, the Internet, the Palestinian Authority Web Site, a lot of webs from Spanish newspapers, and the fact that I've been to Jerusalem and I've seen it all.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: na_th_an on November 24, 2003, 11:46:43 AM
Quote from: "Agamemnus"
The US is a representative democracy, like all democracies in the world, and it instills representative democracies.

 
That's very funny, indeed, considering on what you are doing at Guantanamo. Those Afghanistan people can be terrorists, but they are not animals. Human Rights? What for?

Jesus Christ himself taught once: "You see the small twig in your pal's eye before you notice the big log in yours". Meh.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Agamemnus on November 24, 2003, 11:48:57 AM
http://www.phototour.minneapolis.mn.us/essays/democracy.html

http://www.academon.com/lib/paper/28597.html

http://www.webref.org/sociology/r/representative_democracy.htm

http://www.thepenn.org/vnews/display.v/ART/2003/07/07/3f09ba48aebb6

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-democracy.htm

http://ming.tv/flemming2.php/_d10/_v10/__show_article/_a000010-000639.htm

http://www.representativedemocracy.org/

http://www.ncsl.org/public/trust/republic_ad.htm

http://www.knowledge.state.va.us/cgi-bin/lesview.cgi?idl=378

http://www.williampmeyers.org/republic.html

Quote

 However, this still allows for a wide spectrum. The classic is the Roman Republic, in which only a tiny percentage of citizens, members of the nobility, were allowed to vote for the Senators, who made the laws and also acted as Rome's supreme court. Most people would say that Rome was a Republic, but not a democracy, since it was very close to being an oligarchy, rule by the few.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: TheBigBasicQ on November 24, 2003, 11:50:46 AM
Quote from: "na_th_an"
Quote from: "TheBigBasicQfacts"
Let me guess....erm.....the media?  :lol:


I think there is nothing to laugh of. I consider it is clear that you are laughing at my statements so you are laughing at me.

Yeah, the media. A nice combination of local TV channels (one of our cameramen was killed by the Americans who claimed that they mistook his camera with a bazooka), CNN, Al Yashira, the Internet, the Palestinian Authority Web Site, a lot of webs from Spanish newspapers, and the fact that I've been to Jerusalem and I've seen it all.


Well, for me media is media. They are a bunch of liars. I am not laughing at you. But I am just wondering how you all can trust them. They always have and do spread lies, twist words, stretch the truth.

Dont take their reports as facts. Try and visit the place and *see* for yourself and speak with the locals. I know the truth is far different from what you see on TV or read in the newspapers. I know because I have visited Kashmir and one of my closest relatives was in Israel  :???:


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: na_th_an on November 24, 2003, 11:52:30 AM
Quote from: "na_th_an"
[...] and the fact that I've been to Jerusalem and I've seen it all.


Just quoting myself.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Rhiannon on November 24, 2003, 01:21:11 PM
Agamemnus you have still failed to prove that the US is NOT a republic. Every book here in the library says the govt type is a federal republic with strong democratic tradition.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Agamemnus on November 24, 2003, 09:30:28 PM
You said that the US is a republic. The US is not a republic, it is a Republic. Do you see the difference?

The US is a representative democracy. Look up the definition. I have provided you with many links.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Diroga on November 24, 2003, 09:43:23 PM
i dont think any one is going to be swayed


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Agamemnus on November 24, 2003, 10:07:26 PM
Quote

i dont think any one is going to be swayed


:\ Let's just lock this thread. ..


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: oracle on November 24, 2003, 10:11:51 PM
Cos ya losing? Nah, that'd be unfair to the others :lol:


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: adosorken on November 25, 2003, 12:47:38 AM
Interesting Agamemnus...the only articles which claim America to be a "representative democracy" are

(1) an opinion by William Meyers
(2) an uneducated man named Tom Huppi (who???)

The remaining articles only speak of what a representative democracy is. However, take a gander at these resources:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=republic
This is what the US is.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=democracy
This is what individual states are.

http://www.senate.gov/~byrd/speech-repub.htm
This outlays exactly what the US government is.

http://www.nps.gov/liho/writer/1864.htm
President Lincoln on the 1864 Presidential Election, where he clearly names the USA as a Republic.

http://www.house.gov/bernie/town_meeting/1999/BrattleboroUnionHighSchool2.html
A speech by Matt Sheldon, representing Bernard Sanders, former mayor of Burlington Vermont (where I spent 11 years of my life), classifying the US as a representative democracy. This document is laden with non-political rhetoric and personal opinions, hence it is wholly inadmissible as legitimate.

http://www.archives.gov/national_archives_experience/constitution_history.html
How the US became a Republic, in detail.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html
From the Central Intelligence Agency of the United States of America, CLEARLY listing the United States of America as a CONSTITUTION-BASED (which means 'limited government') FEDERAL REPUBLIC with STRONG DEMOCRATIC TRADITION.

Notice that all of my links are actual legitimate sources, and yours...well...aren't.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Agamemnus on November 25, 2003, 12:57:39 AM
The facts will provide for themselves.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Mech1031 on November 25, 2003, 01:01:12 AM
government or no government, you guys confuse me with your big words.  why cant we just say we do things one way, you do things another way, neither of our ways are wrong.  besides, what it all boils down to is that we all have to voice our opinions.  and sometimes people don't like your opinions.  nuts to those people, let them say what they want to.  just cause you don't answer a threatening post or a mockery doesn't make you a coward, it makes him look like a complete and total moron.  oh, wait...one second.  I have a line that will explain why QBnews is (or was)  going to be shut down.  ehem...

Can't you see all this fighting is tearing us apart!!!

sorry, but it had to be said.  all in all, say what you want, but keep the mom jokes above the belt :wink:


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: adosorken on November 25, 2003, 01:06:48 AM
Quote from: "Agamemnus"
The facts will provide for themselves.

...and I just provided said facts. Sorry Agamemnus...you lose. Trying to disprove the documentation of the CIA is going to be VERY difficult, but...I welcome you to try.

Have a good sleep. :D

mech...this isn't fighting, it's called a heated debate. HUGE difference. Besides, it's not breaking any forum rules.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: na_th_an on November 25, 2003, 05:25:30 AM
Quote from: "mech1031"
Can't you see all this fighting is tearing us apart!!!


What fighting? This has been a whole thread of nice arguing without flame wars. Even with Agamemnus who has his own definitions for everything.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: TheBigBasicQ on November 25, 2003, 10:47:35 AM
Quote from: "na_th_an"
Quote from: "na_th_an"
[...] and the fact that I've been to Jerusalem and I've seen it all.


Just quoting myself.


Whatever


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: na_th_an on November 25, 2003, 10:51:02 AM
You're questioning what I've seen?

Maybe those corpses on TV were just actors?


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: Mech1031 on November 25, 2003, 06:10:54 PM
Director: "Ok, thats a wrap people, great job today.  Ohh, Nice job with the moaning and wailing Diane, i actually thought you were dying.  donughts in the break room for all dying people!"

the Tele can screw with ya sometimes.  but this is one of those things that i think not even TV would fake.  if they actually did fake it, it would stir up quite a bit of contraversy.


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: SJ Zero on November 25, 2003, 07:32:20 PM
Quote from: "adosorken"
Quote from: "Agamemnus"
The facts will provide for themselves.

...and I just provided said facts. Sorry Agamemnus...you lose. Trying to disprove the documentation of the CIA is going to be VERY difficult, but...I welcome you to try.

Have a good sleep. :D

mech...this isn't fighting, it's called a heated debate. HUGE difference. Besides, it's not breaking any forum rules.


Why? He argued against the dictionary.com textbook defininion of communism, I'm sure he can find a "chink" in your "armour". :p


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: adosorken on November 25, 2003, 08:13:27 PM
Quote from: "SJ Zero"
Why? He argued against the dictionary.com textbook defininion of communism, I'm sure he can find a "chink" in your "armour". :p

It is just simply impossible to argue against the hard evidence I've provided. This particular portion of the debate is over. :) Which is good too since I was getting a little tired of debating the bleeding obvious.

Agamemnus, ya did good kid, but you're going to have to do better than that if you think you can best me in a political debate. :D


Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
Post by: ToohTooh on November 19, 2004, 05:27:45 PM
    Let's take a moment to mourn those killed in terrorist attacks -- everyday.[/list]Speaking to my little cousin (well, he's 12!) is cosy. At each visit, you want to see him but never make him feel you do -- he welcomes you, talks to you in a way that you want to be his little cousin. As usual, he was no late to notice me:
      "Oh, brother. Was it you?"
    He was busy at something that I couldn't help interfering: It was an extra-curricular activity (organized under the name 'Webber Maggers' -- stupid) to issue a continuous in-school mag named 'The Blue Bead' (yes, it's in English!). Our little peas were sensitive enough to remember those killed in Istanbul bombings at their anniversary. Let's take a look!

    He was bringing together a set of photos he ripped off from a forum -- that was his job in the anniversary page (I mean, providing the image :D).

    Image was blurred already -- must have been of JPEGing over and over after each edit. The angles of photo-shots were messed up. Who cared? He was enjoying it. And, after all, they did the job.

    I asked him about the 'article' itself. Proud, he handed me an A4 whose title, with a huge Times-New Roman, went
      "They came where they would -- every day, like us."[/list]The tea was ready and I have already read, approved, and appreciated every single line in tears. It was high time we took a break.

      And, what about the 'break's in real life? Like of terrorism, of war?

        Oh, the image?..
      Here it is (http://uk.geocities.com/v_for_velvet/after_massacre.jpg)...[/list]


      Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
      Post by: Jofers on November 19, 2004, 05:54:58 PM
      While I understand and agree with your point, and appreciate the Turkish perspective, bumping a thread from a year ago isn't the way to express yourself.  I ran back and forth between BBC, CNN and the 'Times for a second there, before I realized it was from November... 2003.

      There is a debate forum for sensitive topics such as terrorism, but you have to register for it.


      Title: Terror attack in Istanbul, Turkey...
      Post by: Fling-master on November 19, 2004, 06:26:14 PM
      Please don't revive old topics (this one, as Jofers said... being a year old). Thank you.

      Locked.